Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:15:57 -0500 Subject: M-G: Re: M-I: Levy's campaign for political correctness >Jerry Levy:wrote.. >>1) It is hard for me to believe that a socialist revolution will be led in >>any country by those who continue to identify with and apologize for >>Stalinism. Proyect replied: >Louis: Of course. This is especially true of the industrialized countries. >That is why it is such a waste of time for you to prattle on about the >threat of "Stalinist" led revolutions. The CPUSA is a tiny sect that can >hardly contain dissidents to the right and to the left, like David Laibman >or Louis Godena. It lacks influence and numbers in every country in the world. Actually Proyect's reply has hardly anything to do with a political line, but rather his *own* personal approach to the present human material on the list. Notice how his political line is subject to name dropping in the above paragraf. In fact the Stalinists and the political line they represented historically is alive and well both on this list and in real time. It is naturally a clone version of Stalinism and it is no longer backed by any state power like the former Soviet Union or China for example. But the political line of Stalinism which is based on some very fundemental pillars of various turns of Stalin himself like "Socialism in one country", The Popular Front", THe Stage Theroy of Revolution", "The Party Question", The Question of Democratic Centralism and Workers Democracy", "The National Question" and "THe United Front" just to mention some of the more important questions facing the Proletariat. In fact Proyect himself is one of those intellectuall clones who time and again defend neo Stalinists politics time and again on this list. But he is certainly not alone! The only interesting thing about all of our neo Stalinists is that they today want to distance themselves from Old Joe and the more horrible attrocities that he represented historically and at the same time continue along the political lines of just the Stalinists! > >The reason you have decided to wage this fight on m-i is not because we are >facing an explosive growth in pro-Stalin sentiment world-wide or even on the >internet. It is just because you're favorite hangout, m-2/thaxis, is >moribund and you are looking for some action. It doesn't matter that you >approach m-i with bitter hatred in your heart. Some people have a sectarian >personality and like to call attention to themselves, like you and your >soul-mate Malecki. Now this is what is really bugging Proyect. He jumped on Jerry for his work with the squatters with both feet and was completely exposed for his political abstentionist line. In fact he tryed to drag the squatters into his warped position on Communist politics claiming that "Marxists do not support these kinds of struggles involving "Lumpen and student elements". In fact Communist and the working class always stand on the side of every struggle against the class ennemy while at the same time warning that only a workers revolution which sets up the Dictatorship of the Proletariat can be the only real road to freedom and a future Communist society.. Proyect writes; Do you remember when the Trotskyist movement used to have >big forums of 100 to 150 people back in the 1970s? There was always some >knucklehead from an ultraleft group trying to "expose" the speakers during >the discussion period, no matter whether or not there was anybody in the >house who would take him or her seriously. This is what has become of you. >M-I contains people who are trying to have a serious discussion about world >politics. You are in the back row waving your hand wildly back and forth, >hyperventilating, ready to bait the dirty centrists, Mensheviks and >Stalinists on M-I. Then, after you ejaculate, you will then go home to your >apartment, feel much better and have a good night's sleep. I personally >think you can achieve the same effect without leaving your bed. Actually Trotskyists do not throw dirt on the Stalinists or Mensheviks on this list. But we certainly do point out that the path that they want to take the working class down is a road to betrayal. And your so called " MI contains people who are trying to have a serious discussion" is for Louis everybody who he can get along with and connected to hate the Trotskyists! In fact many of the people he considers serious are in fact Stalinists and Mensheviks in political line and serious discussion is agreeing to call each other "Comrade" and then disagreeing with each other. The discussions here for Proyect is a fucking tea party where he can much like his mentor "Tariq Ali" dazzle the public with his rotten political line. For the Trotskyists on this list these questions represent the future life and death of the International Proletariat and therefore we take the discussions quite seriously.. Jerry writes; >>2) Even if Stalinists came to power again (e.g. in the highly unlikely >>event that the Shining Path came to power in Peru), this would be a step >>backwards for the international revolutionary movement since it would >>reinforce the popular perception in the working class that socialism >>bureaucratic dictatorship. Judging from other nations (such as Kampuchea), >>there would also be a very real threat of additional genocide. Proyect replies; >Louis: In places like Peru, just as in Vietnam, the fight against capitalism >and imperialism led by "Stalinists" is progressive. Ho Chi-Minh repressed >Trotskyists in the 1940s. This did not stop us from recognizing the >Vietnamese revolution as a powerful liberation movement. Were you this much >of a Stalinophobe when you were in the SWP, Jerry, or did you pick this up >from hanging around faculty lounges with milk-toasts like Zarembka? Well look what we have here. Almost a correct political position by Proyect! But the list should be warned that his position comes from the time of his SWP membership when they were moving away from Trotskyism towards reformism. But it is very funny that Proyect has to take his experience in the SWP to go after Jerry's wrong position on the shining path. But Proyect does not have it right either. In fact he just wrote the above as a soupbone for his present political love affair with Aldolfo in a rotten block against the Trotskyists on this list. I can really see how this love afair would look like in reality in Peru. Why the peasants who are hero worshipping Gonzalo would blow the New York Librarian Proyect away in about two minutes as a counter-revolutionary agent of imperialism... The only correct position on the shining path is to give them "highly critical" support in any real action directed against the class enemy and at the same time ruthlessly critisize them for a political line that is a dead end for the Peruvian Proletariat. And ALWAYS keeping in mind that this support is ONLY when they got the guns pointed in the right direction. And if they point them in the wrong direction well then the Trotskyists will deal with that allso... Jerry writes; >>4) The transformation of the USSR was *the* most important question that >>has divided Marxists in the 20th Century (with the question of Social >>Democracy and support for imperialist wars being the other major dividing >>line). These divisions will not go away with a wish and a prayer. They >>will not go away if we hide our heads in the sands of cyberspace. Had the >>Stalinists been politically isolated on the list, then I would say that we >>could move on to other subjects. Since they have not been, what's the >>point? If we can't build some consensus over this question, then the >>discussion of virtually all other subjects will degenerate as well. Proyect replies; >Louis: But there is consensus among you and a small group on the "evils" of >Stalinism. You, Malecki, Beddggood, Mage, Rodwell and Zarembka belong to the >"down with Stalin" camp. You and the Trotskyists are pretty much isolated >for the obvious reasons. You approach the list as self-designated saviors >and we, on the other hand, regard you the way we would regard a Jehovah's >Witness knocking at our door on Sunday afternoon to save our souls. Get >lost, I say. Notice that Proyect's list just gets longer and longer and longer! Now he is even claiming that Jerry and Paul Z are Trotskyists. Well I will stand up and defend both Jerry and Paul Z whom I know are not Trotskyists YET! Paul Z is a very political person and Jerry is getting better as of late! Whereas Proyects is doing exactly as he always has done on every list. Trying to pull a highwire act of serious discussion amongsy his own peers while denouncing the Trotskyists and denouncing anybody who disagrees with him of late as being Trotskyists! Paul, Jerry have you looked in the mirror lately. Are you growing a goatee. I mean if Proyect continues along his present trajectory he might start calling you "Leo Levi" and "Leo Z". You better watch out guys this man is capable of anything when it comes to going after the Trotskyists.. > >I take my cue from the FMLN in El Salvador who refused to read anybody out >of the movement, social democrat or Communist. This type of united front is >an inspiration for the type of reborn and reconstitued left that will lead >the working-class in the 21st century. If the social democratic leader >Gulliermo Ungo had had to apologize for the murder of Rosa Luxemburg and >Karl Liebknecht, or the Communist leader Shafik Handal had to confess for >all of Stalin's sins, there never would have been fighting unity in El >Salvador. Yes he did! Proyect supported the FMLN! And the politics of the FMLN were hardly worth recommending to anybody because their politics led to a new defeat in Latin America and these days they are doing a "Yankee Doodle" socialist line along the lines of Proyects own aspirations in regards to the American Proletariat... > >The goal of this list, of course, is not to overthrow a puppet regime. It >is, however, to build ties among anti-capitalist forces world wide without >asking people to pass litmus tests on the Spanish Civil War, etc. That is >why people from CP traditions like Godena, Bos, Chatterjee are comfortable >here. That is also why people like me who are pro-Trotsky on major political >questions such as the rise of Hitler, etc. are comfortable also. The people >who go nuts are people who feel need the to "correct" dangerous ideas. This >includes you. What makes you go doubly nuts is that you feel the need to >"correct" other people's netiquette, no matter how sordid your racist >behavior on thaxis compromises your moral authority. No the goal of this list is not what Proyect thinks. In fact it is the theroretical clarification for the popular front and of trying to replace the idea of a revolutionary party of the Bolshevik model with and all incompassing party of the entire left. It is counter-revolutionary to the core and in reality this fake unity will explode in his face at the first sign of serious class struggle..And to say that you are "Pro-Trotsky" Wow that must be the understatement of the year. What would Trotsky have said to Proyect on his ideas put forth in this letter. He like me would have opposed you although Trotsky would have perhaps done it in a more eloquent way . Naturally this list should be and open list where ideas can clash and where people can both learn and even sometimes take a step in either the right direction or the wrong direction. It should be a list which welcomes hard ideological fights, and political clarity. While at the same time gives new people a place to join in and fight it all out..That is the short version. Personally I thing there should be two or three workers for every intelectual on the list and a five or 6 to one ratioo if we were to include the poor, lumpen and student elements which Proyect appears to appall! But that is only a personal wish...Not to many poor and working class people can walk in here. Why should they? Jery writes; >>5) I find the on-list marriage between the Stalinist apologists and the >>Social Democratic "independents" most interesting. More than anything else >>this speaks to the unprincipled character of some of the independent >>centrists. (Perhaps we should have a cyberseminar on centrism). Proyect replies; >Louis: Stalinism, Social Democrats, Centrists! All in one paragraph. I >applaud Malecki's decision to feature Levy's piece on squatters in the next >Cockroach! With an ability to throw epithets around like this, isn't it >obvious that Levy should co-edit Cockroach as well. The last paragraph says it all. Louis Proyect just can't take it when he gets beat politically on and issue like the squatters. He was dead wrong and Jerry was right. And the fact that Malecki and others jumped in and exposed Proyects rotten line has turned him into a hysterical frenzy of these types of letters connected to trying to snow job the rest of the list into one of his new boring cyber seminars! Where he can try to continue to dazzle people with his Neo Stalinist-Menshevik intellect. Well. on Bougainville people will soon be dying because of the Mercenary army that RTZ is equipping. I will work on this stuff and at the same time keep and eye on the great new cyber seminar which might just turn up some interesting people which will make Proyects hate list just a little longer.. Warm Regards Bob Malecki --- from list marxism-general-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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