Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:19:45 +0000
Subject: M-G: red-baiting


> Date:          Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:34:12 +0000
> From:          Richard Bos <Richard.Bos-AT-hagcott.meganet.co.uk>
> To:            marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> Subject:       Re: M-I: Hugie Liar
> Reply-to:      marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU


Richard Bos I see works for the New Worker.  But the New Worker isnt 
going to get any further than the Old Worker unless the real causes 
which stopped the Old Workers from overthrowing capitalism are 
understood.  While list members hide behind self-appropriated terms 
like "communists" "reds" and excoriate Trotskyists as 
"anti-communists" and "red-baiters",  you wont get a moments peace. 
If you want to piss-off to a new list, fine,  though that would be an 
act of cowardice. If you want to stay on this list dont bully Zeynep 
and other list members to get this list censored to suit your tastes. 
They won't budge. Deal with you political opponents by argument,
 not by death threats.

The use of falsification of history may be OK for the Stalinists and 
stalinist apologists on this list to justify themselves to 
themselves, but it wont work "out there".  In the latest little 
threads that I have been in Godena has claimed that Trotsky voted for 
Chiang Kai-shek's admission to the Comintern.  I characterised this 
piece if misinformation as `falsification'.  I take Trotsky's word on 
this.   On Nicaragua, Hugh is challenged by Proyect to supply an 
"independent" source to prove that the Simon Bolivar Brigade was 
suppressed by the Sandinistas. "Independent" in my book means 
independent of the bourgeoisie or the proleteriat.  Which does 
Proyect want? It could be that in both cases neither side will ever,
on this list, agree with the others source. So be it.  The test will be 
when the events "out there" actually begin to prove the Trotskyists 
right, and as I said before on this list, consign the stalinoids to the 
dustbin of history. Of course, if events go against us, we owe it to 
the working class to own up too before we get dusted off.

Lets take Albania since there is a "popular rebellion" in progress.
What can the Stalinoids offer in this case to support materially and 
politically this rebellion?  We have had the LCMRCI's analysis. We 
have had contributions from Hugh and a second article posted to M-G 
by Alan Wood. So far these positions seem to be drawn from 
Trotskyists which see the `stalinists' who were the ruling bureacracy 
in Albania as responsible for overturning the former deformed workers 
state and restoring capitalism.  But what kind of capitalism? An 
incredible distillation  of the pure excrescence of parasitical finance 
capital married to ex-stalinist ruling class corruption in the form 
of the pyramid schemes!  This is what the `victorious'  rotten capitalism 
offers to its newly restored ex-communist client states - giant 
gambling parlours without the tinsel of Los Vegas - Los Anus of 
Europe more like it...
This goes a long way to explain the popular rebellion. But what can 
the Stalinoids offer by way of political support?  Are their tired, 
demoralised, but still wholly chauvinist tendencies going to 
stop the EU powers from sending in the troops? Are they going to 
condemn the rotten role of the ex-stalinist Socialist Party which is 
trying to compromise with Berisha in the name of "bourgeois 
democracy"?  Will history repeat itself this time not as farce 
but again as tragedy?  Lets see whether the stalinoids on this list 
have rescued themselves from their falsified history and come out 
into the light of day on this question.

Dave.

Richard Bos of the New Worker wrote:
> Carrol Cox wrote:
> <snip>
> . On a maillist provocations
> > don't work if no one responds; Red-baiting doesn't work if no one
> > responds. Hold to that 3 post limit; Use the delete key. If you
> > post worrying about "new list members" who will be turned off by
> > the clutter, you will only increase the clutter they have to
> > overcome.
> >     Carrol
> 
> You are right that provocations do not work if no-one responds, but in
> real life people have passions. Reds have been baited and abused for so
> many years now that they have come to the point where they aint going to
> take it any more. Most of us are good people who care about the future
> of humankind. We want justice for the working class, and many of us have
> fought and died for it, as we will in the future.
> 
> We are not mass murderers or class traitors. We want to be part of a
> list where we can discuss finding a way forward for the international
> working class in an atmosphere of comradeship. We want to discuss our
> points of agreement and our differences with people like you and Jon
> Flanders, and Louis Proyect, and Gary Maclennan, and (although she does
> not think so) Zeynep Tufekcioglu, in an atmophere of comradeship.
> 
> The constant provocations and abuse are not part of comradely debate. It
> is the duty of the moderators of this list to put a stop to it. Zeynep
> is being critisised, not because anyone thinks of her as an enemy, but
> because she is wrong in the way she is acting on this issue. I must
> stress that I do *not* see her as an enemy.
> 
>   Jon Flanders said in reference to the creation of another list:
> 
> >  I would only add the observation that while I agree it would make our >lives easier, and I would favor this solution, the parties concerned >would soon tire of talking to themselves and likely co
> nfess to not knowing everything. >But by all means let them try it if they want.
> 
>  As far as I know Jon, most people like and respect you. The only people
> who abuse "centrists and revisionists" are the very same people who are
> doing the red-baiting that I am objecting to. I want to be on the same
> list as you without either of us being harrassed. If it were not for all
> the silly arguements the discussions would be twice the quality in half
> the volume.
> 
> I think that a lot of the problem the last few days is that, because the
> decisions of the moderators have been critisised, they have not really
> been listening to what is being said. No-one is trying to burn bridges
> with them. Yes, I am disappointed with them at the moment, but I
> recognise that they are human and make mistakes. I am always making
> mistakes -- sometimes BIG ones. All that I, and others are demanding is
> that they act for justice and defend this list from the wreckers.
> 
> Sorry to add to the clutter Carrol, but I feel if this matter can be
> sorted out this week the clutter will be far less in the future.
>  
> Comradely,
> 
> Richard.                     
>       New Worker Online http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2853
> 
> 
> 
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