Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 08:22:21 -0500
Subject: M-G: Rolf Martens request for Subscription to LeninList


To all comrades in LeninList:

I have received - during my rota as moderator in charge during comrade Jim's
absence, the following note.  


>Hello comrade Adolfo,
>
>I'd like to join the LeninList.
>
>Jay told me this address was the one to
>write to at the present time.
>
>Greetings,
>
>Rolf M.
>
>
>

I have replied to Rolf Martens in the following terms:

Your application and other mailings have been received and will be passed to
the commissioners (moderators) panel for their decission.  Unfortunately
some are not presently available due to the holiday period.  

In your particular case there is already a demand from a Swedish subscriber
that you should not be admitted at all. I will ask that comrade to forward
again the charges for counter-revolutionay activities he brings against you,
and I will forward them to you for your comments, so that the commissioners
panel can study the case properly if they so wish.

As far as my personal position, I have already explained it to you.  I am
for allowing you in, if you would accept the rules that apply to your
personal case, something that judging from the content of your other
postings you already dispute, deny most emphatically and in fact
counter-attack charging as "reactionary". There is a consensus among the
commissioners at present (arrived at before hand) that unless you would
abide by the rules IN YOUR OWN PARTICULAR CASE, your subscription will not
be accepted.

It seems to me that you fail to grasp the nature of LeninList.  I said that
we - following BASIC communist principles - had rebelled against the swamp
and that we intended to move away from it. We never claimed to have already
reached the "Maoist Heaven" you apparently inhabit all by yourself (with the
possible exception (and that only occassionally) of some other people you
know in Germany).

Many a times I have said that neither myself, nor anyone else I know
(except, possibly, Enver Hoxha)- but including Chairman Gonzalo - has ever
presumed of 100% Marxism. Neither did Chairman Mao himself.  But then, live
and learn!

LeninList is a MARXISM RE-AFFIRMATION List. In has the nature of a United
Front to defend the basic principles of Marxism and advance its members in
the understanding of the proletarian ideology, departing from the actual
level of development in THESE concrete conditions, and working its way up -
by means of struggle-criticism-transformation, hopefully, to a higher level
of understanding. 

The more modest Marxist-Leninist-Maoists in this list dearly hope and will
struggle to the best of their abilities for this development to result in
more - and not less - revolutionary people understanding the need for Maoism
to command the world revolution.  For that to become a reality, Maoism must
be taken seriously and not made a caricature of.  Other people in this list,
will doubtlessly think otherwise and work accordingly towards their own
proposals and ends. That is the nature of a United Front.  

Under the present level of development of this unity, LeninList is not a
Maoist list. However it is not an anti-Maoist list either.  It will not
allow anti-Mao, anti Stalin, anti-Lenin, anti-Engels, Anti Marx propaganda
or any other counter-revolutionary rubbish even that presented as
"super-rrrrrrevolutionary".

That is the sole basis of the present degree of unity achieved and we do not
claim anymore than that.

If you wish to discuss issues of Maoism with me, then you should set up a
Mao-List yourself and wait around until I, and those who by then may be my
other comrades, feel TOGETHER qualified to engage you in your Olympic level.  

We shall then join in when we have TOGETHER been able to - laboriously and
in continuous two line struggle - scale such lofty heights as you, and the
chosen few who may have join you in the interim, already inhabit.  In the
mean time, I have more pressing things to do and you will excuse me if I do
not have the time - or ability - to answer your lenghty criticisms in
detail. I will just re-affirm mine and leave it at that, for others to judge.  

However, do not despair. The day will come. You ought to learn some patience
since the conquest of communism may even take 1000 years, although we hope
to cut that down to the next 50 to 100 by our own strenuous effort and
self-less struggle. 

But for that to come to pass, one of the first things to do is to learn to
avoid getting bogged down in irrelevant matters and wasting time in
discussing abtruse ones.  

No one forbids you to "swim against the current". Not even to "walk into a
train tunnel against the light at the end that seems oddly to be moving
rapidly in your direction". Do practice such sports as much as you like. 

However, LeninList does - prima facie - not seem to be the place for you to
do that as much and as often as you would like.  Try the Yang-tse river or,
maybe, the Chunnel Tunnel!.

Adolfo Olaechea

NOTE:

For the information of subscribers to LeninList, below a copy of the
correspondece cursed in Marxism-General between R. Martens and A. Olaechea -
which has already been published here - and also the reply of Mr. Martens
rejecting those charges as "counter-revolutionary", "enigmatic" etc.  

The other postings of Martens can - unless there is a different opinion
among commissioners, or a request by a substancial number of list members -
stay in the malecki swamp where, no doubt, these have already been published
and interested people can pick them up if they so wish. Or, in the case of
any individual subscriber wanting a copy, they can contact R. Martens
himself at the following E-mail address: rolf.martens-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se



>Look, comrade Adolfo, why do you want to be on that slave list
>at all, with those ball-and-chain rules that were already there
>from the begining?
>
>Why complain now that you must have a ball-and-chain to each
>leg instead of only to one?
>
>Why not simply move here to M-G and ask everybody half
>sensible to do the same?
>
>Compete with Louis Nobleman et consortes in bullshitting
>even you will not manage anyway, I'd guess - and what might be 
>the point of such?
>
>Still on principle supporting you and the others against
>*all* extra balls etc etc on M-I of course.
>
>Rolf M.
>     --- from list marxism-general-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>===============================================================

As to comrade Rolf' position it must be said that he - for his own narrow
reasons - endorses anarchism and fails to understand the need to firmly
"ball and chain" the reactionaries and the  agents provocateurs such as
malecki, the fascists posing as "leftists" such as the Peruvian old state
defender Utica Rose, the Voice of America hacks such as Barney Rosser, the
criminal anti-working class wreckers such as the Trotskyst sectarians, and
to establish the supremacy of Marxism.

He invites serious comrades to partake of the company of roaches and frogs,
such as malecki, Rodwell, and all other reactionaries and considers himself
"free from any balls and chains" in their company.  However, there in the
malecki list, while malecki himself is nothing but a door-mat moderator,
Marxism itself is hobbled with the "ball and chain" of the swamp and the
"comradeship" of the agent-provocateurs.

What comrade Rolf does not understand is the need for Marxists to advance
away and differentiate themselves from the swamp.  To raise their level
among true comrades and to resolve their differences in a democratic and
principled fashion AMONG REVOLUTIONARIES.

Comrade Rolf is like a "lone wolf".  He has many things that he holds dear
but which other Marxists (the overwhelming majority) do not want to discuss
or resolve at present.  This irks him no end since his individualism gets
the better of him, and that is the root cause of why on many occassions he
ends up giving ammunition to the enemies of the communist cause.  

He understands not the need for the "ball and chain" of revolutionary
discipline and the "ball and chain" on the intellectual that taking the
masses feelings and level of development into consideration involves.  That
is why he prefers the apparently "free" atmosphere of the swamp and spends
quite a lot of his time finding points of "agreement" with the agent
provocateurs such as malecki.  He likes and enjoys such purposeless "pillow
fights" with the eunuchs of reaction.

He understands not the need of Marxists to advance away from the swamp. To
differentiate themselves from the inhabitants of the swamp. In any case: Is
there any subject in which we have not already - not once, but a hundred
times - totally unmasked the maleckis and the Rodwells, the Wayne Austins
and the Utica Roses?  Have we not establish sufficiently their barely
disguised fascistic character?

What is there now in their arguments but asseveration, slander and
repetition of the same all tired and twisted reactionary arguments?

Nothing at all.  The only one in Marxism-General with an interest in
bringing communists to waste their time going back into a provocateurs pit
such as that list is comrade Rolf himself, since only there can he post his
individualistic theories without hindrance.  This is putting Rolf Martens's
narrow interest above the class's interests.

I have said long ago that for me Marxism-General is nothing but a bulletin
board (among many others), and as such, I will use it as many times as I
please without offering any succour or even a nod of acknowledgement to the
vile malecki - who, for me, as a "moderator" is nothing but a door-mat with
a reactionary whistle attached to it.  Every time you trod on that door-mat,
it whistles a reactionary letany.  And so what?  

To use this bulletin board (as I do others) means concretely that whatever
points of view I want widely disseminated, will also trample over malecki
(the toothless "moderator") lying prone on the floor.  

The price to pay for this dissemination in Marxism-General is that malecki
and the rest of the dogs of reaction will bark and work themselves into a
lather!  That is absolutely predictable and unavoidable.  

According to comrade Rolf, I have ALSO to hear their predictable and
imbecilic whines as well?  According to comrade Rolf, I should do that!.
Does comrade Rolf have any interestor derives any pleasure in us giving the
agent provocateurs yet another chance to red-bait the communists and attempt
once more to substantiate the imperialist allegations about "issuing death
threats" that they desperately seek to pin upon the revolutionaries in
cahoots with the imperialist secret services?  And all this in "fair"
exchange for his own pet theories having a free ride?  

Take El Diario Internacional.  Does this courageous and heroic revolutionary
press organ have to demean itself down to the level of a "Cockroach"?  For
comrade Rolf, it does.

In LeninList there are also ball and chains and we make no bones about them.
Comrade Rolf will find he may join but that some of his posting will not be
allowed, unlike in the malecki pigsty.   Ball and chains against
reactionaries, against indiscipline and disruptive activities.  Many of the
activities of comrade Rolf - not all - fall into that category and are
antagonistic to any purposeful debate at the present time.  Any sincere
communist would understand that procedural "proletarian ball and chain" and
accept it with Leninist and Maoist discipline. 

We communists are not anarchists, but defenders of one type of dictatorship
over another.  Moreover, the worst ball and chain is the ball and chain of
liberalism, and that is the one comrade Rolf insists in impossing on us, who
have, in Lenin's words, "consciously come together and set ourselves apart".
He advocates that the communists, who have already taken this step - a
rebellious one against the swamp - to return to it and take another bath
along with the roaches and the snakes.   

Adolfo Olaechea


UNITE! Info #31en: 8/8 What c. Adolfo's riddles hide
[Posted: 29.03.97]

[Continued from part 7/8]

30 CHARGES BY THE MONDAY OLAERACLE OF A-DELHPI

[The 25.03.97 posting where they appeared: See part 4/8]  

Here are listed, in the order they were brought, the variously 
enigmatic, in some cases revealing or reactionary, in others 
both revealing and reactionary and in others again just plain 
ridiculous, and in all cases false, accusations or allegations 
brought against me by Adolfo Olaechea in a posting sent i.a. 
to the Marxism-General mailing list on 25.03.1997 under 
subject "M-G: Re: Monday Posts M-I (part two)".

For comments on those of the below which I've found to merit
such, see parts 1/8-3/8 above. And I repeat here roughly one
thing, concerning the lot of them, that was mentioned in part 1/8:

In order to understand why certain terms recur below, the reader 
should know that Adolfo first posted (quite justifiedly, I venture 
to guess) an attack on certain dealings by the moderators of the 
so-called M-I list, one that I because of its provocatively
slavery-type rule that "no subscriber under any circumstances must 
accuse another of being a cop"(!) never have subscribed to. I 
then answered approximately "yes, I support you on that, but why 
do you want to be on that *ball-and-chain* list at all; why not 
move here to M-G instead and ask all at least half-way sensible 
people to emigrate with you?". This was the immediate reason 
for Adolfo's "Olearacle" reply. [The "LeninList" (no. 26) was 
news to me.]

It should be mentioned too, in fairness (see reply reproduced 
in full in part 4/8) that my posting also had contained a hint of 
an opinion of mine that Adolfo had sometimes been engaging in 
some loose talk: "Compete with Louis Nobleman et consortes in 
bullshitting even you will not manage anyway, I'd guess - and 
what might be the point of such?"

List of charges by comrade Adolfo against me, 25.03.97: 

1)  	having narrow reasons
2)  	endorsing anarchism
3)  	failing to understand the need to "ball and chain"
    	reactionaries and agents provocateurs, fascists
    	and criminal anti-working-class wreckers
4)  	failing to understand the need to establish the
    	supremacy of Marxism	
5)  	inviting serious comrades to partake of the company
    	of frogs, roaches and other reactionaries
6)  	considering myself to be free from any "balls and
    	chains" in the company of such people
7)  	not understanding the need for Marxists to advance
    	away and differentiate themselves from the swamp
8)  	not understanding the need for them to raise their 
    	level among true comrades and to resolve their 
    	differences in a democratic and principled fashion 
    	*among revolutionaries*
9)  	being like a "lone wolf"
10)	having many things that I hold dear but which other 
    	Marxists (the overwhelming majority) do not want to 
    	discuss or resolve at present 
11) 	being irked no end at this fact
12) 	embracing individualism and letting it get the 
    	better of me
13) 	on many occasions ending up giving ammunition to the
    	enemies of the communist cause
14) 	not understanding the need for the "ball and chain"
    	of revolutionary discipline 
15) 	not understanding the need for that "ball and chain" 
    	on the intellectual (unclear whether this might be
    	supposed to refer to myself [too], an industrial 
    	worker since more than two decades back, or [only] 
   	to a need the writing comrade in question considered
    	himself and some others to have) that taking the  
    	masses' feelings and level of development into 
    	consideration involves 
16) 	preferring the apparently "free" atmosphere of the 
    	swamp 
17) 	spending quite a lot of my time finding points of 
    	"agreement" with agent provocateurs 
18) 	liking and enjoying purposeless "pillow fights" with
    	the eunuchs of reaction
19) 	not understanding the need for Marxists to
    	differentiate themselves from the inhabitants of 
    	the swamp
20) 	having an interest in bringing communists to waste 
    	their time going back into a provocateurs' pit
21) 	having individualistic theories and a narrow interest,
      	putting this above the class's interest
22) 	necessitating the writing comrade likewise to hear 
    	the predictable and imbecilic whines of the dogs of
    	reaction
23) 	possibly having an interest in or deriving pleasure 
    	from others' giving the agent provocateurs yet 
    	another chance to red-bait the communists and 
    	attempt once more to substantiate the imperialist 
    	allegations about "issuing death threats" that they 
    	desperately seek to pin upon the revolutionaries in
    	cahoots with the imperialist secret services
24) 	having my own pet theories, wanting them to get a
   	free ride, possibly being willing to do a "fair"
    	exchange to obtain this by occasioning others
    	to give the agent provocateurs yet another chance 
    	as above
25) 	holding that El Diario Internacional (a monthly
    	stating as its aim to serve the interests of the
    	oppressed masses in Peru; since March 1995, I've
    	been disseminating it regularly here in Sweden) has
    	to demean itself down to the level of a "Cockroach" 
    	(a Trotskyite "E-zine")
26) 	having sent and/or being liable to send certain
    	postings that will not be allowed on [the apparently
    	recently created] LeninList
27) 	having engaged, though not constantly, in activities
    	that fall in the cathegories of indiscipline and 
    	disruptive activities, including such that are 
    	antagonistic to any purposeful debate at the present
    	time
28) 	possibly not being a sincere communist, who would 
    	understand a procedural "proletarian ball and chain"
    	and accept it with Leninist and Maoist discipline
29) 	insisting at imposing on the communists the "ball 
    	and chain" of liberalism
30) 	advocating that the communists, who have already
   	"come together and set themselves apart", return to
    	the swamp and take another bath among the roaches
    	and snakes	

[So far a complete list of charges or allegations 
brought against me by Adolfo Olaechea on 25.03.1997]




     --- from list marxism-general-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---