Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:31:10 -0500
Subject: Re: M-G: "Discussion" with/on Chris-B: More later


At 02:03 AM 5/16/97 +0200, Rolf Martens wrote:
>John B wrote.
>
>
>> The mere fact that one may not sub*scribe to exactly your concept of
>>socialism does not make them a pro-capitalist in the least. 
>> You would probably call me a 'capitalist toady' for being somewhat
>>critical of certain aspects of Russian and Chinese communism, even though
>>my dislike of the capitalist system is as intense as the next commie ;)
>>  It is very conterproductive to spend as much time attacking fellow
>>Marxists than one does the capitalists!
>
>>
>>This is pointless and childish infighting.
>>>
>>>Rolf M.
>
>>Sorry, just saying my two cents,
>>John Bicketts
>
>Sorry, John B, you're overlooking one *crucial trick* on the
>part of the enemies of the great majority of people.
>
>False-labelling.
>
>Those creeps are NOT "fellow Marxists".
>
>Ever heard of Bernstein?
>Ever heard of Trotsky?

Tho' i'm not exactly a Trotskyite, I would say that he was a Marxist, no
matter what side you take on him.

>Ever heard of Chushchev?
>Ever heard of Brezhnev?
>Ever heard of Liu Xiaoshi in China?
>Ever heard of Lin Biao in China?

Ever heard of Stalin? But never mind...
( I mean, he's why people wrongly associate socialism with dictatorship)

>That last-mentioned case was a particularly
>instructive one. Lin B was actuallt named in the oficial
>press in 1969 etc as Mao's "closest comrade-in arms"
>and probable successor.
>
>Yet in 1971 he tried a coup, i.a, intended to murder
>Mao Zedong.
>
>It failed. Some sucessors of his succeeded.
>
>With your primitive thinking John, the
>revolutionaries will get nowhere except in
>front of the machine guns of reaction.

Your forgetting again, whatever you may think of the above people, most of
them WERE Marxists- maybe Marxists in the wrong, but most did beleive in
Marxism.
 
As an analogy, the fact that many capitalists considered Roosevelt a
traitor sadly did not make him a socialist- he was just a different sort of
capitalist

This tendency to label people 'traitors of the revolution' seems rather
primitive to me- it's the reason the USSR had all those nice purges and stuff.
It seems to me that a little democracy would have cut down on that a lot.
People could express their disagreements by vote rather than by violence.
  Sorry to bring up a beorgousie state, but despite sometimes very serious
disagreements the USA has never had a cuop d'etat or anything like it.  Not
that I'm advocating capitalism- I'm advocating democracy-capitalism is in
fact the reason that American democracy isn't worth a whole lot.
 Combine Socialism AND democracy, see what ya get!
>
>Please make amends! Improve!
>
>Rolf M.
>
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