Date: 10 Jun 97 02:31:28 EDT From: neil <74742.1651-AT-CompuServe.COM> Subject: M-G: M-I: perfidious imperialists ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: INTERNET:marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU, INTERNET:marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU TO: marx-int, INTERNET:marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU DATE: 6/9/97 9:38 PM RE: M-I: perfidious imperialists Sender: owner-marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Received: from jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU [128.143.200.11]) by arl-img-8.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA05312; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:38:32 -0400 Received: (from domo-AT-localhost) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.6.6) id AAA24528 for marxism-international-outgoing; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:38:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU: domo set sender to owner-marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu using -f Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.206.132]) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id AAA53964 for <marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.virginia.edu>; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:38:02 -0400 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id AAA00933; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:37:28 -0400 Date: 10 Jun 97 00:35:38 EDT From: neil <74742.1651-AT-CompuServe.COM> To: marx-int <marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU> Subject: M-I: perfidious imperialists Message-ID: <970610043538_74742.1651_EHL50-1-AT-CompuServe.COM> Sender: owner-marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-To: marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU dear Hugh, I thank you for the aspects of your reply verifying my argument against the 1939 Nazi-USSR pact apologists as within the bound of the marxist method. But in your critique of my views of the 1930s USSRs imperialist nature leading them to join in the rush for conquest and plunder you have a number of contrdictions of your own to clarify. you have claimed in the past that the 1930s USSR was a 'degenerated workers state' which needs a 'trotskyist political revolution" against a Stalinist counterevolutionary caste controlling the political state and centralized economy who's leader was Stalin. But in your critique you don't just per-your usual deny the state capitalist and imperialist nature of the USSR, you sink deeper in your swamp of contradictions. You say the USSR did not go over to armed force (in Poland, the Balts, etc.) to 'expand'., but "If anything was forcing the USSR to 'expand" it was the need for a worldwide socialist revolution to ensure its survival and this would not be the Soviet union as a state in the first instance but the socialist basis of the economy and the dictatorship of the proleatariat as a voluntary federation of states liberated from capitalism and the dictates of the imperialist world market." Now this even contradicts your previous views and opens your floodgates from muddle and confusion to farse. 1) If Russia was still the "Dictatorship of the proletariat' and even "socialist" why would you call for "political revolution to overthrow it? Apparently your call to replace the rulers in the USSR state is no more revolutionary than calling on Labor to repalce the Tories in the UK! 2) Previously and today you said Stalinism (state capitalism really-NC) really was the gravedigger of the Chinese, Spanish, German working classes mass struggels/movements against capital. Now you say in 1939 , the USSR sees the need for worldwide socialist revolution and that is why it moves into E. Europe by force of arms ! And this on the heels of the '36-39 purges and terror in the USSR! What happened here Hugh, did Stalins regime suddenly become revolutionary in 1939? 3) though Russia has clearly developing their industry (after) smashing workers soviets and councils --and then liquidates anyone or any workers group who works to re-establish them --for consolidation of its state capitalist class rule with wages system (plus labor conscription-camps ) , commodified production in the vast majority of industries including human labor power , the exchange economy with money and value calculation in the state caps "planning", you call this all 'the socialist basis of the planned economy". Incredible! Preposterous! Please explain! This '39 war, like WW1 was imperialist to the core on the part of the capitalist ruling classes regimes , whether they be "democratic' "fascist" or fake 'workers states" like the post 20s USSR when state cap counterrevolution engulfed Russia and social democratic and then fascist counterrevolution engulfed Germany , Austria, Italy, Hungary, etc. These nations were the pariahs for the democratic Versailles imperialist victors (except Italy , who got the short end of Versailles victors loot) who grabbed most all the cherry booty of the globe so leaving the other defeated capitals relative morsels to feed on. Not being able to recover and use carrot and stick to smash the rising workers actions in the 30s depression, as were the victor imperialists, the WW1 losers were Economically impelled to move to a more aggressive strategy to crush workers, conquer saturated markets and speed up accumulation of capital to compete in the overall market, and that was the key material basis for their political and military tactics, part of which was the Nazi-USSR pact, Munich Pact, Russo-Franco Pact etc.. Neil --- from list marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- --- from list marxism-general-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
Display software: ArchTracker © Malgosia Askanas, 2000-2005