Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 02:34:51 -0400
From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki)
Subject: M-G: Cockroach! Extra 


COCKROACH! Extra (Jefferson.Village Part 1)

A EZINE FOR POOR AND WORKING CLASS PEOPLE.

WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT OUR CHAINS.

It is time that the poor and working class people
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------------------------------------------------------
1. Exchanges from Jefferson village.
-----------------------------------------------------

Below you will find a few exchanges coming from
"Marxism-international" a discussion list at
Jefferson Village on the Internet. The issue
is "cop-baiting" and endangering people's lives
on Internet!

Dear lists,

Below is a new "private" letter published by one of the participants
on the Marxist -International list at Jefferson Villiage by Louis
Proyect, the neo Stalinist yellow journalist, who wants again for the
uppteenth time accuses Malecki of being a cop/agent in the pay of
someone. Once again these private letters always seem to become public
material on Marx-International at Jefferson Village a "moderated" list
which suposedly has rules in order to prevent this kind of dangerous
activity. Unfortunately the rules do not apply for Proyect who has
time and again been allowed to cop/bait people, and just recently
physically threaten another list participant. It has become quite
obvious that a policy of favoritism (being old friends) and political
allies of the moderaters has led to a situation where this character
continues with his extremely dangerous provacations and the moderaters
Zeynep from Turkey and John a friend of Proyect going back to the days
of their engagement in the fake Trotskyist reformist SWP. Along with
Proyect's latest is and open letter to Marxism-International at
Jefferson Village, its moderaters and list participants.

Warm Regards
Bob Malecki

Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 07:55:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu>
Sender: lnp3-AT-columbia.edu
To: Stephen C Tumino <sctumino-AT-acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Re: M-I: PANIC LEFT - 12


Look, Stephen. There is a large body of evidence that Malecki is
nothing
but an agent-provocateur who is paid to disrupt leftist mailing lists
and
newsgroups on the Internet. Please, please try to ignore him no matter
how
hateful he is.... It is disconcerting to see serious
political people like you and Brian try to have a discussion with a
barking dog like him (Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 12:25:27).



Louis

Dear moderaters and list participants on M-I.

Once again proof that Proyect, the neo Stalinist yellow journalist is
smearing people without proof behind the scenes by painting them up as
"agent/Provacateurs" in the pay of someone. He claims that their are
"large bodies" of evidence to proof this point. Well, don't you think
that Proyect who has made this claim actually provide some real hard
evidence? In reality these slanders are in fact real evidence of the
political character of Proyect of this neo Stalinist yellow
journalist. All his talk of "Marxism" really comes down to smear
campaigns against people like myself who live in exile for their deeds
during the anti war movement around Vietnam. And in fact are facing
quite long prison terms in regards to those activities.

I suggest that once and for all. That Proyect provide proof for his
accusations or that the list mothers who have repeatedly quietly
allowed this creep to continue with this kind of activity not once,
not twice but on numerous occasions, exile him from the list. This man
is setting up political opponents to all and sundry (in private) as
cops. And in fact endangering Malecki defense if and when he returns
to the United States from exile.This goes far beyond the rules and
principles of any list. It would be the same if I for example were to
write (privately) to everybody on the list that Zetnep in reality is
in the pay of the Turkish military and secret police or that John is
only on the list in order to track potential trade union activists in
the states who appear on the list for the FBI and CIA. Or that our new
participant from the Puerto Rican movement is actually and agent
looking for information on the activities of militant Puerto Ricans
here on the list.

It is and outrageous scandal that the list moderaters time and again
allow Proyect to get away with this kind of slander and dangerous
activty. Time and again he has been allowed to do just about anything
both privatelfy and publically on this list. Where others have
recieved a week for posting a couple of letters over the limit. In
reality the Jefferson Village people are responsible for aiding and
abbetting viscious slander which could help the United States
government who would love to put him behind bars for a very long time.

As evidence of his lying provacations Malecki has published both
newspaper articles letters from outstanding anti war activists like
Phil Berrigan and Liz McCallister. Both Phil Berrigan and I were both
incarcerated in a maxium security prison and much of the issues around
the case involving Malecki have to do with conspiracy charges not only
against myself but mant others incliding Phil Berrigan but also people
living underground and in exile. His repeated slanderous and vile
activity in the long term is endangering not only Malecki but numerous
others in this case! I demand that Marxism list at Jefferson Village
and list participants do something to stop Proyect and his extremely
dangerous provacations. People can be put behind bars for a very long
time and Jefferson Village is silent and in fact allows this kind of
activity by Proyect to time and again to continue. I demand that list
participants put real pressure on Jefferson Village in regards to
getting Proyect to either prove his case or publicallyt apologize. Or
that he is immediaetly removed from the list until doing one or the
other. It is not just a question of principle here but real lives that
are at stake. Bob Malecki, Bo Brake, Phil Berrigan, Liz McCallister,
Bob begin, and many many others are being endangered by the activities
of this slanderous propaganda on Proyects part.

Do the moderaters and the list have any sense of purportion as to the
seriousness of these kinds of (private) slanders which always for some
reason appear at a regular intervall are allowed to continue? The
truth is that the moderaters have time and again been playing footsie
with Proyect
and continue to allow him all kinds of slack.

I can just imagine what would happen if the people in Buffalo had sent
a "private" letter originating from me accusing Zeynep of being and
"Agent/Provacateur" in the service of the Turkish secret police? I
would immediately be banned from the list for ever! Rightfully because
doing things like this is criminal and very dangerous kind of stuff.
It is far more dangerous that the Maoists wars where everybody is and
agent of something or other because of political line.

Proyects accusations involve no politics what so ever but just
straight out blantant accusations without no proof!

  And the moderaters time and again allow this kind of shit from
Proyect to turn up on the list and do absolutely nothing to stop his
repeated cop/agent provacations of Malecki without proof. In fact
doing nothing means that the moderaters agree with this kind of
activity and allow it to contine. This is the fourth time this year
that Proyect's accussations without proof have become public knowledge
and the moderaters do nothing. You people make me sick.. You are
licking the ass of a person who is endangering some very real people
who put there lives and bodies on the line during the war in Vietnam
and still do today both in underground and exile.

I accuse the  moderaters John and Zeynep of cowardly and repeatedly
allowing   this kind of activity  of slanderous shit to time and again
be allowed on the list by Proyect. He has a free fucking ticket to do
anything both publically and privately and you do absolutely nothing
to stop him. Whereas many others have been warned and excommunicated
for a period of time for rather minor infractions Proyect your fucking
pal and co-thinker is allowed time and again accuse Malecki of being
and agent/provateur in the pay of somebody without proof no even in
any kind of political context.

So this time you either do something. I myself intend to publish this
public letter all over the net accusing the moderaters of time and
again allowing this kind of slander by Proyect to be made public on
the lists.

Hopefully all leftists will take part stopping Proyect the neo
Stalinist yellow journalist extremely dangerous private and public
activity regarding this matter.

Warm Regards
Bob Malecki

copies to every list, person i know!

Please send letters of protest to;

marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village. virginia.edu

and cc malecki a copy at

malecki-AT-algonet.se
------------------------------------------------------
Reply to Jefferson Village and appeal ti List.
This is both a reply to Zeynep and a appeal to the members of this
list.

Dear Zeynep and list,

Thank you for the kind reply. I can understand your dilema in regards
to not wanting to act as cops on the Internet. I can even understand
your reasoning in regards to the latest but all to often
private/public expression of Proyect's views on Malecki which he
claims has been proved. I understand that you explicitly make it clear
that you do not consider me a cop/agent. In fact your formulation;

" I think you are real and I don't think you could be faked anyway."

quite funny!

But I see once again when push comes to shove and Proyect with his
quick keyboard throwing off a letter in his own defense to the
moderaters which by the way you have not published shows quite clearly
that the moderaters once again are playing footsie and letting this
character get away with the fact that it is Louis Proyect who time and
again (without proof) both privately and publically has been accusing
Malecki as being a cop/agent in the pay of somebody.

In your polite reply it becomes explicitly clear when you say;

">However, the behaviour of whoever made this public is rather awful
in
>itself. If he was bothered by at it the time, he should have contacted the
>moderators, I notice the date is April 19th. It has been months and months,
>and this made public just when there is a disagreement between Proyect and
>Stephen. There have been some assertions "The Revolutionary Marxist
>Collective" is young to politics and hence inexperienced, but if this
>happened like the way it looks like it happenned, they've quickly learned
>one of the main dirty tricks - accumulate material on your opponent and pull
>it out when the time is right. I think you should also recognise this as so,
>Robert, what is being done is dishonest. Whoever made this public is not
>concerned about you, you are material for their political fight."

and draw the conlusion;

">I will check whoever made this public, and if it is really made
publicly
>only recently, the person may get suspended or warned, depending on what we
>decide with the other moderators. Releasing contents of private e-mail is
>forbidden by the list charter."

that once again the perportrator of the crime Proyect goes free. Only
to threaten another person who's only crime was to point out that a
vicious campaign of slander is going on publically and privately by
Proyect which endangers peoples lives in living reality. Although I
can agree with you that Stephan who only published this private letter
only yesterday to M-I saved it for almost three months before making
it public.

Now the perportrator of the crime Louis Proyect who less then a week
ago threatened Brown with pysical violence because he had the audacity
to critisize Proyect for hopping all over Neil for Neil's great expose
of the American CP in regards to the American born Japanese. Not to
mention that he is trying to set up people for expulsion from the list
on a regular basis, in this case the state cap debate, or getting a
new rule for the list forbidding the state caps and Andy from
discussing at all!

Proyect continues is public private campaign on all other lists,
privately and on Usenet and now you want to warn or suspend for a week
one of the Buffalo people for the crime of publishing Proyects
"private" slanders on M-I instead of warning or suspending Proyect who
time and again on a basis of every two or three months repeats the
great lie about Malecki being proved a cop/agent!


Amazing but as I said in my original letter you are once again aiding
and abeting Proyect who visciously first makes lying and extremely
dangerous slanders about a member of this list all over the net and
also privately to every new person he finds interesting on the list.
He endangers both the lives of outstanding militants like Phil
Berrigan and Liz McCallister not to mention quite a number of people
who live in exile or underground still today and would be facing many
years in prison for their opposition to the war in Vietnam.

NEVER on any occasion has the moderaters openly warned or taken one
step in controlling a person who is their personal friend and
sometimes political allie. But quite the opposite clearly express once
again that Proyect goes free and now one of the Buffalo people will be
warned or perhaps excommunicated for a week for posting a personal
Email. This is wrong and unprincipled!

And In fact backhandely helping you friend and pal Proyect to continue
the campaign and slander endangering some very courageous people who
put their lives on the line. The only question being that when will a
new "private" letter by Proyect appear on the list...

Now I warn the list and you the moderaters. You choose to side with a
person who endangers people who not only have spent many years in
prison, exile or underground. You put the list here before the fact
that Proyect not only endangers peoples lives, but blantatly turns
around using his own lies in order to get the Buffalo people expelled
from the list and you are supporting him in this.

This is the bottom line of your "moderation" on this question.

I from now on and until futher notice consider that the moderaters of
m-i and other people who have power over the buttons are actively
helping to endanger peoples lifes by continually allowing Proyect to
manuvre with his campaign of lies and slander. You in fact side with
the criminal and endanger the victims or potential victims of this
slander.

The point being that it is Proyect who penned the letter and never has
provided one shred of proof or apologised for bringing this up and it
becoming public in one way or another. I think that not only is this a
cowardly act on the part of the moderaters at Jefferson Village but
proves that political blocks and old friendships on this list go
before the lives of real people.

I remember a fight we had Zeynep when you first appeared on the list
here at Jefferson village. It was about the hunger strike in the
prisons of Turkey where leftists were dying like flies. You were
outraged at me because I opposed this method of struggle basically
saying that starving one's self is ridiculous.

However, when I realised that this debate in the concrete situation
could endanger these leftists lives who were on the line in Turkey i
on principle broke off the discussion and refused to make public this
debate on Usenet when the Maoists tried to do a big hattrick on my
political opposition to hunger strikes as a tactic.

I did this because these people's REAL lives were on the line. It had
nothing to do with list rules or charters. It was because doing a
debate at the time would have been unprincipled and extremely
dangerous for these people who sat in prison.

You on the other hand choose the exact opposite line here in defending
Proyect who is responsible with his public/private campaign of getting
real people hurt very badly.

Plus now Zeynep and others at Jefferson Village are using rules and a
charter in away that allows Proyect to continue his campaign of
slander and lies and then turn around and use the same lie and slander
to get his present political adviseries in Buffalo thrown off the list
for publishing his private Email to the list.

You are in seclusion with a person who's campaign can have very real
and very far reaching serious and extremely dangerous consequences.
All who have read my appeal know that not only Malecki but numerous
other people living both in the United States, in exile and
underground because of their opposition to the Vietnam war can, are or
could be indicted and sent to prison for many years for some the rest
of their lives. Many of us who on principle quite cleary make the
point of who the real enemy is in regards to this war as future wars.

Your back handed support is the bottom line of allowing Proyect to
continue his private/public campaign. Can't the moderaters understand
that this comes before
protecting a disscussion list on this bougeois media form called the
Internet?

Do you not realize that this is not some Maoist flame war but people
like myself and others are indicted by the United States government?
That people could be picked up jailed and the key thrown away? And you
stand here defending Proyect who time and again endangers peoples
lives with slanderous lies and accusations without one shred of proof!
Well I must politely say I am truly sorry and I will be forwarding
this and your letter to people in the United States who are affected
by Proyect continuing this campaign.

The moderaters through Zeynep have proved to me that these lives
against the prospect of confronting their friend and political ally do
not mean dip shit. And I condemn you as real pieces of shit who put
M-I before real peoples lives that are on the line here.

Well it is your choice.

I here by publically declare that Jefferson Village and especially its
moderaters on Marxism-International unfortunately in defense of
"their" list are prepared to aid and
and help Proyect with his continued private/public campaign by
allowing him to go free of any responsibility for the situation and at
the same time aiding and helping Proyect to get Stephan warned or
dumped from the list for posting his private/public slander once again
to the list. 

I oppose any kind of actions taken against Stephan other then a
warning for his rather unprincipled behavior in waiting three months
too publish this private letter
yesterday in a polemic against Proyect. But I also oppose the
unprincipled way that you are handling this in regards to Proyects
private/public campaign which time and again turns up here as this neo
Stalinists yellow journalists continues to endanger peoples lives by
spewing out these "private" slanders which all the time repeatedly
seem to become public either here on M-I or other lists. Naturally I
can not hold you responsible for the other lists. But I do hold the
moderaters reponsible for this list.

I demand that either Proyect publically apologise or prove his
accusations. That or that the moderaters take action against Proyect
because this stuff endangers the lives and well being of real people
in real life! This is not just a flame war this can lead to people
being indicted by the government of the United States and very long
prison sentences! This is not a fucking game...But the real thing....

.I appeal to all militants on M-I and other lists to help me in
stopping Proyect and his campaign. That he either publically prove his
accusations or publically apologise. Without one or the other that he
be removed from the list not for the campaign of slandering Malecki as
a cop/agent in the pay of someone. But that his campaign can have very
far reaching and dangerous purportions for many militants still alive
today.

Many people are backhandely being endangered not only with real
indictments but long prison sentences and Proyect is allowed to
continue his public private campaign which has a habit of turning up
here time and again. This is wrong and should be not only not allowed
but stopped immediately.


Warm regards
Bob Malecki
-------------------------------------------------------
Dear List,

I hope everyone reads Zeynep,s poor little third world Turkish reply to the
extrodinary provacation that Lois Proyect continues with both publicly and
privately in endangering REAL militants lives .

And yes I have seen both Comrades die and comrades who are facing death and
execution. I have seen comrades thrown in the hole and beaten. I have seen
many who not only become grey and old far to young also. And in fact people
who can take it and put a fucking gun to their head. But I also have seen
heroic and principled efforts by people to fight on despite the incredible
situation they find themselves in.

Does Zeynep think that little Turkey is some sort of special place or is she
turning on the juice to get sympathy for her present support of Proyect and
the extrodinary moderation where the victims
Sterhan and the Buffalo people are threatened for expulsion because they
published a letter which has vial accusations without a shred of proof.

The first time in fact i almost agree and even better understand what the
Buffalo people are talking about! But they do not get a free ticket either!
In fact the clarification on "we wrote Proyect" for a clarification of the
charges against Malecki going on to admit that once again that Proyects
"real proof" never came to them and thus they published the letter.

In fact I turn their own arguements  of favoratism around on them where they
actually admit that they
Relied on this neo Stalinist yellow journalist giving some sort of
clarification rather then in practice taking this kind of outrageous slander
immediately to the list.

In practice this means that they have the same "petty bougeois" morals as
those they critise. Because when push comes to shove they openly admit that
this kind of stuff is not smething of basic principle that Communists fight
against in the workers movement. They instead elect the same method of
individualization of this matter by writting Proyect instead of immediately
going out to the list.

They in principle used the same method that they accuse Proyect and now
Zeyneo as well as others of using. This is wrong and unprincipled.

Now back to Zeynep. Look Zeynep. Stop the poor little third worldist crap
when the pressure is on. The whole point is that Proyect time and again has
tried to destroy not only this list in his own interests. But in fact is
endangering real people's lives with very long prison sentences in the
United States. And you allow it to proceed claiming that this stuff was
"private". Bullshit Zeynep . Would you like me to post at least forty old
messages to the list of Proyects or mine or other people on this matter?

How dare you call this stuff "petty".  Is it petty to finger someone who
stands indicted by a secret grand jury for saboting the American Vietnam war
effort in many different ways? Is it petty that some very outstanding
militants like Phil Berrigan and Liz McCallister and others could also be
drwn int this stuff as the indictments did come down when we were in prison
together? Is it petty that people the FBI are still looking for and are
living underground in numerous places petty?  This is both and insult to
people's intelligence but it clearly also is and attempt by you to creep out
of this stuff and save the neck of Proyect. The little clickism that has
been going on here historically based on a close circle of people at
Jefferson village who through thick and thin do all kinds of hat tricks in
order to turn the list in a particular direction of there own interest has
to stop. The latest turn in this kind of stuff is the attempt on the behalf
of Proyect and backed up by the moderaters of gagging the state capitalists
debate.

And finally I am tired too. Tired of seeing Jefferson Village time and again
defend the ex SWP neo Stalinist yellow journalist and his viscious and
criminal campaign that endangers people. You have time and again allowed him
to do this and in other matters helped him in making special rules. All to
destroy and open and honest debate with the only pre condition of ONLY three
posts a day. No cop baiting! (What a joke!) and No fascists.

In fact this list is being destroyed by a viscious and evil man who stupes
to any kind of tactics in order to get his political opponents. The most
viscious of all is the classical Stalinist cop baiting. Far worse then the
traditional Maoist wars where these kind of antics are the norm.

And now you are using the poor little third worldist copout in order to once
again in deed defend this man who is endangering real people's lives. That
is ehat is really going on here.

I insist to the list that Proyect either publically apologise or come with
proof of his viscious slanders. Or be excommunicated from the list until
this is the case. If you really were interested in people's lives you would
realize that the consequences of Proyects repeated vilal slanders does in
fact endanger real peopl and outstanding militants who not only have died,
been in prison  and exile but live in underground and extremely precarious
situations. The truth is that you are defending a finger man! A man in
Turkey who accuses leftists of being a cop/ agent? How would you deal with
it in real life.?

Let say that somebody made the accusation that Rahul your boyfriend was and
imperialist cop/agent spy! What would be the consequences for him, for you
and the friends around you. Get what I mean. Or are you to busy with your
poor little Turk bellygazing. I remember quite well when Aldolfo was trying
to set you up here a few months back. But the truth is that you are allowing
Proyect to set me up and also a lot of good Vietnam war activists whose only
crime was doing the best they could under the given circumstances to oppose
that war.

LIKE I said. I KNOW LONGER HAVE ANY RESPECT FOR THE MODERATERS OF JEFFERSON
VILLAGE. IN THAT THEY ARE AIDDING AND ABBETTING PROYECT'S SLANDEROUS
CAMPAIGN WITHOUT PROOF. FUTHERMORE YOU ARE LYING IN SAYING THIS IS A PRIVATE
MATTER. It was one of the main tactics that proyect used to destroy  M-1.

Bob Malecki



-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n:	Zeynep Tufekcioglu [SMTP:zeynept-AT-turk.net]
Skickat:	 den 13 juli 1997 01:38
Till:	marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.virginia.edu
=C4mne:	M-I: too late in the night

I am truly sick of all the irrelevant discussion on m-int. I don't know why
people won't understand that as moderators, we can't moderate over private
e-mail, no matter what we think of it personally. We are moderators of
m-int, not people's minds. Sorry. That's unfortunately all we can do.

It is really late at night here, I came back from a gathering of many
friends, some old, some ver young. Someone read a poem;

if the world was as innocent as
your body
no mother or father
would have to ask of their child
from the state

As I listened, I thought of marxism-international and many of the petty
concerns that arise here now and then. Do any of you have any idea of what
really important means? It is almost impossible for me to continue to
moderate this forum from this country. It was crazy to attempt, anyway, I
keep thinking - is there anyone out there who's ever lost a comrade? Never
to come back? No bones, no funeral, no nothing? No more drunk laughing, no
more silly jokes? Did anyone among you ever hug a mother or father whose
child would never come back? Did you ever lose a strike  after all the
people were fired, one was killed and few were lost? Did you ever look at
the eyes of someone who looked as if they were 40 when they were only 25?
Don't you ever realise there is a huge world out there besides your egos?

Of course not.

Post away. Have fun.

Zeynep
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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