File spoon-archives/marxism-general.archive/marxism-general_1997/marxism-general.9710, message 243


Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 02:55:22 -0500
From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki)
Subject: M-G: Re: re-M-INTRO: a question to everyone


As the poison from the M-I list is now spreading to the Marx-intro list (see 
below)
I reply to all the lists and Marxist intro in opposing the wrecking 
operation done on
M-I and LP list by certain people be stopped from spreading to other lists. 
However not by bureaucratic bans and manuvers but counterposing a model 
which is counterposed to these New left, leftovers, Stalinists and 
reformists who through slander and organization manuvers want to impose 
their model...

At 03:27 PM 25/10/97 PDT, you wrote:
>When I was a girl, in order to make ends meet, my mother took in a 
>boarder. This man claimed to be a political exile from the United 
>States.
>
>It was my chore to empty the bedpan beside his computer and bring him 
>food. For reasons which I could not understand, he was loathe to leave 
>his computer. I went about my duties, and he seemed hardly to notice to 
>me. 
>
>But one day when I went in to bring him his food, he grabbed me by the 
>arm. 
>With his other hand, he lifted the dirty undershirt which he always 
>wore, exposing his fat ugly belly, screaming at me to look into his 
>crystal ball. 
>
>I had no idea what he was talking about. But he grabbed me by the neck, 
>and forced my head toward his bloated stomach. It was at that point I 
>caught sight of his penis, on whose end he had tied a red ribbon.
>
>At that point, I began to become greatly afraid. With his other hand, he 
>took hold of a pamphlet that said Transition Program, and began to 
>scream that I was a  stalinist mensheviks. 
>
>Convinced he was going to rape me, I summoned all my strength and broke 
>free of his grip and ran out of the room screaming. My mother wasnt at 
>home, so I ran out of the house to the neighbours. 
>
>That is how I was introduced to marxism. 
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---

As the poison from the M-I list is now spreading to Marx-intro which I now 
send the following to the list. So that all here who are new to Marxism will 
see that and serious attempt to counterpose these wackos who spread their 
philth and manuvers all over the place in order to destroy lists open to all 
who seriously want to discuss problems facing poor and working class people. 
As Marx-intro is in the hands of a moderater who knows what this is all 
about and that this person who authored the above philth with others has 
already hi-jacked one list and destroyed it. I suggest that he read the 
below carefully as all others.

Above and beyond that this letter is a quite clear provacation of no 
political content what so ever then to slander and destroy any serious 
discussions I suggest that this person take his slanders elsewhere before 
this list is destroyed. I will not call for the expulsion of these 
characters. We do not use the Stalinist school of slander and vile 
unpolitical garbage to trash people, nor do we advocate bans and exclusions. 
But stand firmly on the principles of workers democracy. It is people like 
the above writter who are wreckers and sabateurs of any serious discussion 
and have proven this on a number of lists where they post or have hi-jacked 
and bureaucratically purged and banned people. They are the syphlis of the 
workers movement and as they leave the stage of history are trying 
everything in their power to stop the development of a revolutionary 
regroupment of the left after the demise of the Soviet Union and the leap by 
the Social democracy into the camp of the bougeoisie to administrate 
capitalist counter revolution..

So to all you new comers I suggest that you read the purposal closely and 
take part in the creation of a serious alternative to these relics of the 
past. Become part of the solution by destroying the problem....

Warm regards
Zeke

As their are numerous people now beginning to talk about "a new list"
after the latest events at Jefferson Village and the LP list I am
sending out this concrete purposal to a number of people on the net.
And too a couple of newsgroups..

I feel that the last two years has shown that a new model must be
approached or we are going to fall into the organizational model of 
the past being brought onto Internet as the norm for discussion lists.
I oppose now any attempts to "reform" the present lists, but to
counter pose a real political alternative based on Workers Democracy.
As this purposal is going out to quite a number of people as a purposal 
to set up a "working committee" to build a Communist/Internalionalist List
both in the Email form, but also Usenet form I suggest that all who are
interested include their Email address and make a "Working Committee" 
mailing list...Naturally all of the know Stalinist and Menshevik hacks
who have proven through their actions their support of special "rules" 
and bureaucratic purges need not apply...As you have shown by your
activities that you will not be allowed to have control over any
of the buttons if we are sucessfull..  

OK! Here is my concrete purposal. 

That we go out with a public declaration in the near future saying that we
want to build a communist/Internationalist discussion list/lists open to all
in the workers movement. 

We do this because the new left left overs, the reformists, and the
Stalinists are trying to bring their models of lists, based not on
workers democracy, but the wishes and politics of party hacks, friends,
and new left groupie existence of the past period. The lists at Jefferson 
Village like "Marxism-International" and the LP list at  
labr.party-AT-conf.igc.apc.org,- are good examples of how not to build a list. 
But also the total fiasco
of the so called "unity" list which was nothing other then a fake
"Trotskyist" list who wanted to use a Stalinist or reformist list
model to build a discussion list for a "family" of "Trotskyists"!

The New Left, and Stalinism is dead! The reformist of the LP and Social
Democray have leaped into the bougeois camp to administrate capitalism.
But these leftovers of the previous period are trying to bring their
bureaucratic models and groupie existence onto to Internet as the
norm for so called "free discussion" lists. 

In fact the new left, leftovers, the Stalinists and the reformists, are
trying to apply their bankrupt organizational model in real life of the
preceding period --of having a meeting putting all kinds of guards and
goons around the meeting--and silencing those who dare to speak out
in opposition to their rotten and bankrupt politics! This must be stopped
by creating a superior list and organizational model! With people
who we know from the past who have had a principally correct position
on the "Workers Democracy" question..

Just as these organizations are now dead politically or are in the
process of jumping on the capitalist counter-revolutionary bandwagon,
so is their organizational model dead. What is needed more than ever
are a number of discussion lists on Internet with Servers in a number
of different countries (for security reasons) which are open to ALL
poor and working class people and those claiming to fight in the
interests of poor and working class people..The remnants of the
Stalinists and Menshevik organizatioal model of the past must be destroyed.
Not spied on. Real Communists must counter these traitors with a
better organizational form..We must counter the bureaucratic manuvers
with a list model that is superior to the prehistoric model they
are trying to drag on to the Internet as the "norm"..

Against the now new left, leftovers, Stalinist and reformist lists
including all attempts to build a fake family of "Trotskyism" lists
which are hardly open, hardly democratic, and in fact and organization 
expression of the left of the past we propose;

A working committee to build a Communist/Internationalist list or lists
both on a number of servers and a newsgroup on USEnet with the above title.

The mailing list or lists and Usenet list will have three fundemental rules.

1. Open to all poor and working class people and organizations in
the workers movement who claim to represent their interests.

2. No platform for fascists! No cop/agent baiting without proof!

3. A four post a day limit to the lists to keep the lists
   affordable to poor and working class people and to
   prevent the lists of being cluttered up in the flame
   wars which are inevidible..

Poor and working class people need a list/lists which are open
to all and not based on any group of moderaters, who put
just their politics, friends, or organization centered around
bureaucratic rules and special rules which deny the possibility
of free discussions in the workers movement. Enough of these
fake left-leftovers,Stalinists and reformist bureaucrats and 
their historically now dead organizational model. We counter-pose our 
model to these fakers who have proven that what they fear most
is just and open list to all!

Towards a real and open Communist/Internationalist list where
all poor and working class people, Socialists and Communists
trade unionists and other mass organizations are welcome to
take part in the discussions, post news or whatever.

We must sweep the bankrupt organizational (my turf) thinking of the
fake new leftists, Stalinists and reformists onto the dustbin of
history..Not by trying to reform them or spy on them but a new
Communist/Internationalist list with a team of principled 
people we know who have power over the buttons and will
defend this model against all attempts bt these fakers
to hi-jack the list... 

And sign it with something along the lines of individuals who
are gathering around this purposal and its central pillars
of rule and thought.

I suggest that all people who think this idea is a good one. Then spread it 
around
and we will build a mailing list with all those who are interested to 
continue to work on this rather rough draft purposal. All those wanting to 
be on the list send
their addresses to me and I will make and "official" mailing list so that 
all who have
something to say can CC it to all thse on the list...I will also send the 
list to all as it changes from day to day..

Two other things of a more practical nature about this purposal. I think we 
should be looking for servers in a number of countries as in the future it 
could be vital if one server is closed down by the state then we have 
alternatives to switch too..

Finding out what kind of software we need,how much space on a server is needed
and stuff like that...

Another thing I think should be the goal of creating this list. That is as a 
political instrument countererposed to the presently bureaucratically run 
lists. We should set up and information list which clearly state which lists 
are run by
bureaucrats and hacks and which lists we consider open and functional on the 
principle of workers democracy. For example M-G and thaxis are lists that 
the Communist/Internationalist list would recommend where as the M-I and LP 
list have proven that they do not function on the principle of workers 
democracy. This means using our new list as a combat weapon to counter-pose 
against those lists that will gag the debate by special rules and bans or 
exclusions..

Ny Email is "malecki-AT-algonet.se"

Warm regards
Bob Malecki
-------------------------------------------------------
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