From: mim3-AT-mim.org
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:50:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: M-G: Re: MIM sweeps away assorted rubbish


Mark Jones says:
> social-imperialism.. But Lenin is not in fact describing anything as
> historically-real and solid as a *class*:

MIM3 replies: What could be more real than a group of millions of people
willing to kill millions of others over a period of years? And then that
same group turn around and support Hitler? That's very real. Such people
could have nothing but the appropriation of wealth from the colonies to
guide them. If you attribute years of war killing millions to "false
consciousness" there is nothing left to attribute to class. You have
turned  Marxism upside-down on its head. That's why I advise reading Marx
in the "Holy Family" and how he opposed the idea of "Absolute Criticism."
Sure, some things especially in the very short-run and for individuals we
can attribute  to "false consciousness," but if everything revolves around
"false consciousness" then you might as well admit you aren't a Marxist
anymore, just a psychologist. At some point we need to see the effect of
classes and their struggles.

Mark Jones says:
that does not mean they were
> not members of the proletariat who produced surplus-value in huge
amounts.

MIM3 replies: MIM has published four magazines on how to calculate this IN
THE REAL WORLD.  I must insist that you do so either for England or some
other imperialist country and show us your calculations and conclusions.
Let's not be quoting old calculations from Das Kapital at each other.
Let's do what Lenin and Mao did and come up with analyses for our times. 

Marxism is a science. There are numerous ways to distinguish our positions
with reference to actual facts about the material world.

How large is the surplus-value and how large is that extracted from the
Third World? From the oppressed nationalities within imperialist borders?






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