File spoon-archives/marxism-general.archive/marxism-general_1998/marxism-general.9801, message 26


From: mim3-AT-mim.org
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 03:14:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: M-G: Jeff Gerber to MIM on Israel


[MIM3 comments: Jeff Gerber had arranged for this file to be sent to MIM
before through Nakived. We received it again in January 1998, likely
because we criticized Nakived for an Archie Bunker imitation and for
reading too much U.$. Nazi lit. 

Although Jeff Gerber insists that we avoid usual MIM
policy and use his real name, we cannot assure readers
that he is in fact a Zionist or an anti-capitalist.
We can say for certain that in these times this sort of
Zionist view is rather rare.

What this letter contains is a quick sketch of the history of
Zionism and some polemics on where Reds should stand. More MIM
comments come at the end after both Gerber and Nakived have spoken.]

Dear MIM:
This is a repeat of a file I had dictated to N.  Here it is again without
personal comments not made by myself save for the few at the end that I wanted
left in.  This is to any interested Marxists and it is from Jeff Gerber.

This was prompted by MIM Notes 147.  From Jeff Gerber
Parts 2 and 3 follow.

1800's the Jews started big time Zionist movements tho this
was not the first, the Machabees were the first in revolt against
"Greeks" living in Syria or even before that - even when
Alexander the Great tried to make it into Greek colonies the
Jews rebelled:  Machabees!  They were also notably SERPENT OF
WISDOM venerating Jews.  Later on the Roman Empire divided into
a Latin and a Greek speaking half and the Romans drove the Jews
out after the Bar Kochba war, around early AD times.  A giant
war.  At first the Jews defeated the Romans and set up a Jewish
Nation, then the Romans kicked their butts later.  They exported
and drove out the ENTIRE Jewish population of the nation and
sent them as slaves INTO THE DIASPORA. THAT is how the Jews
got into Europe.  OK?  That is how the Jews lost their land,
their NATIVE LAND in Israel.  That is how Jews bvecame "Wandering Jews
with no land of their own, despised by the European Christian nations
in which they tried, repeatedly, to settle in.  Like the Amerinds driven out
by Anglos, the Roman imperialists drove the Jews out.  THEN Rome
Christianized and made Israel a "christian country," with no
Jews there.  They also threw out people they called Theurgies which is of
historical importance if you realize that these Theurgies, from an Hellenic
(preSocratic, Turanian) tradition later became the Guilds (Free Masons).
Then came the rise of Islam and Arab armies defeated
the xians and Islamized Israel.  Byzantium was defeated much
later by the shamanist Turanian KUMANS, then the KHANS who turned
Moslem:  Seljuks, Tamerlane, Ottomans, etc.  The Xian crusaders
tried to take it back for years.  The ONLY Jews that had a nation
at the time of the Kumans were the KHAZARS and they were not
even Jews -- they were Turanians -- but you can be sure, hundreds
of thousands, MILLIONS of real Jews went to the new "Jewish" Nation!
THAT is how the Jews ended up in the PALE later on!  But back
to the past -- the only other Jewish nations were in Yemen and
Ethiopia. The Jewish government in Yemen was run by a woman
at one time and the Arab Mosmens exterminated them.

The Turks took over the Israel area, the Moslem Arabs and
and Turks of the time kept fighting over it with the Moslem
Egyptians coming in on the Arab side.  But the Arabs ended up
each switching sides and etc -- but the Turks ended up with TOTAL
victory and owning Israel.  They owned it for a long time.
Then, in the 1860's with the permission of the Turkish
Government, Jews started to come BACK into the Israeli area.
They didn't just come in.  They BOUGHT UP the land and the Turks
sold it - even when NO ONE WAS LIVING ON IT, certain Turks and
Arabs laid claim to it and had to be PAID BY THESE JEWS.  They
were PAID and with exorbitant amounts!  At that time, most of
the land was uninhabited wilderness: deserts, mountains and
swamps.  The Arabs had even created MORE wilderness by destroying
MORE land by cutting down trees and other stupid shit, while
the Jews PLANTED trees.  You get the picture if you aren't blind.
The Jews took up a collection around the world even, to plant
trees back in the areas that the Arabs defoliated.  The chief
tree planting agency was called the Jewish National Fund. The
American Mark Twain visited: he is an eye-witness:  most was
uninhabited and the rest was sparcely habited except for a few
big cities like Jerusalem and Acre.  As the Jews came in, they
created an economic boom.  There were JOBS available now where
before there were none.  The Jews were draining the swamps,
irragiting the desert, washing the excess salt out of the soil
to make it fit for agriculture and bringing in their European
liberal or SOCIALIST ideas:  like, 8 hour work day, equality
for women, voting rights for all citizens including poor,
majority rule or democracy whichever you want to call that,
end of feudalism and a whole LOT of what WE would call
multicultural and pluralistic ideas like religious freedom and
other LEFT WING types of things.  Keep in mind, in the 1860's,
it would be HARD to find a Jew who was not PRO COMMUNIST ala
Marx.  I don't think I need to point out the strong Jewish support Lenin had
to anyone who isn't retarded or living in a closet.  This thing continued up
until WWI.  The Arabs hated this stuff where a woman could divorce a man, have
1 wife, or women  equality or no class system.  They HATED it and of course
you can GUESS which Arabs LIKED IT and got stirred up to make
complaints aginst THEIR OWN ways of life.  They also then, only
then, started up with this shit about "Jews are going to buy
it all up" and they said "should be death penalty for Arabs
who sell land to Jews."  The Grand Mufti seid it.  Yes, but
they LOVED selling it to Jews when it was what they considered
WASTELAND because they themselves never developed it and/or
destroyed it as they cut trees down.  Now, with the Jews having fixed it,
Islamic Arabs were POURING into the newly developed land, poor people who
wanted jobs and LOVED the different system.  Prior to the Arabs getting rich
on oil money, they were POVERTY STRICKEN.  The new Jewish Nation with
its economic boom attracted them like flies.  Arabs who came
to live there from Arabia, Syria and Egypt and other places
DID NOT call themselves Palestinians!  In those days the word
Palestinian MEANT JEW!!!  THESE are the facts covered up by
the switcheroo in labels.  So, Arafat is NOT a Palestinian.

In WWI, the Arabs sided with the ENGLISH CHRISTIANS against
the Turks and combined English and Arab armies drove the Turks
out.  England became the OWNER of Israel/Palestine!  I.e.,
imperialists fighting their own war, declared they owned land
that these Jews had long since BOUGHT AND DEVELOPED!  Now, the
English played both sides against each other, Arab against Jew.
Here is why:  England was not just fighting Turkey, but was
also fighting Kaiser Wilhelms Germany Austro/Hungarian Empire
and at that time Germany was considered to be stronger than
Turkey.  The English wanted the Jews of the world to side with
ENGLAND and NOT with Germany.  Jews owned banks and factories
all over the world, keep in mind.  An English politician named
Lord Balfour promised that the Jews would have Israel/Palestine
as a nation - simultaneously he promised the Arabs that they'd
have the same piece of land as an Islamic land.  PROBLEM IS:
the Jews ALREADY BOUGHT AND DEVELOPED IT.  Now, in addition
the English promised a big chunk of the middle east to FRANCE!
This is important.  As part of the deal with the French, part
of Israel was GIVEN to the French government of SYRIA, the Golan
Heights.  In exchange, the French gave up their rights to the
giant oil fields at Mosul which today is in Iraq but which the
French wanted to be part of "French Syria."  So they swapped
a big oil field so that part of Israel became part of Syria.
Then... there used to be an Arab country called the Hejaz.
They were allied with the English!  They lost an intra-Arab
war with the Saud Family from Riyad, the capital of Saudi Arabia.
The Sauds annexed the Hejaz to be their nation.  Now, the losers
in that war were called Hashimites, that is what the former
leaders of the Hejaz were called.  These may also be called
the Abdullahs since their KING was called Abdullah.  The English
divided up another section of Israel/Palestine - they gave one
to the French and the other one to the Hashimites.  They renamed
this piece of Israel/Palestine "Trans-Jordan" later to be known
as "Jordan."  The local people who had lived there were NOT
in charge - they had to take orders from the Hashimites.  When
the English put  the Hashimites in charge of Jordan, they ALSO
put a Hashimite  King in charge of IRAQ.  Then their king
Abdullah was murdered for wanting to cooperate with the Jews
who already lived on the part that the English did NOT give
to the Hashimites (that Jewish part was renamed the League of
Nations Mandate with England as the ruler). After the king was
murdered for wanting to cooperate with Jews, Hussein the new
Hashimite King took over Jordan.  The English now were faced
with a possible war between the Islamic Arabs and the Jews over
who would own the Israel/Palestine area (despite the fact that
the JEWS BOUGHT IT, DEVELOPED IT, FIXED IT UP).  The English
figured that the Moslems would be the winners and rather than
fight the whole Islamic world, they decided to side against
the Jews.  The result was that the Jews had to fight a war
against the ENGLISH!  The most famous act is what the English
call the "Terror Bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem"
which was the ENGLISH military headquarters.  The Jews vowed
to keep killing ENGLISHMEN until Balfour's promise was kept.
During this whole time, the Arabs were attacking the Jews
everyday.

The English did NOT want to let the Jews fleeing Hitler in,
during WWII!  But there was a world public opinion revulsion
against the extermination and genocide by Hitler and Harry Truman
and others pushed the English to LET the Jews in.  The English
WOULD let any Arab in.  In the period 1947-49 the English left
(good fucking riddance) and the ENGLISH General in charge of
the Jordanian Army, in combination with the army of the King
of Syria and the Egyptian army and the Saudi Arabian army and
the Iraqi army and others.... tried to have a NEW genocide and
throw the Jews into the sea!  However, aid came from Stalinist
Russia (YEAH!!) and the USA too and Jews from all over the world
and in very heavy fighting the Arabs were DEFEATED.  The
victorious Jews renamed their nation ISRAEL and ceased to call
themselves Palestinians!  NOW, nobody in the world was called
a Palestinian anymore because to Arabs the word meant JEW.
And the Jews wanted to be called Israelis.  There was a huge
exchange of refugees at this time.  This was similar to the
exchange of refugees in the war between India and Pakistan in
which a huge number of Moslems left India and a huge number
of Hindus left Pakistan.  The Jewish refugees were driven out
of Moslem countries with their lands confiscated, no payment
(they were NOT landlords, mind you). These Jews did NOT want
to stay in refugee camps, they wanted to get jobs and make a
new life.  But the Arab refugees who the war chased out of Israel
- they went into refugee camps receiving money from the UN which
replaced the League of Nations, and joined terrorist and military
organizations.  They RENAMED THEMSELVES "Palestinians."  They
started a war which they VOWED would take as long as it took
to annihilate Israel.  The neighboring Arab nations
cynically refused to grant these newly renamed Palestinian
refugees citizenship!  But to swing world opinion against Jewish
Israel, they, THE ARABS, kept these people unemployed in squalid refugee
camps where they got indoctrinated to fight the Jihad against
Israel.  The result was constant shelling, constant raids. In
an effort to bring peace, Israel, which had regained the Golan
Heights from Syria, GAVE IT BACK to Syria.  S. Lebanon which
Israel also gained, gave this all back to Lebanon in an effort
to bring peace.  The Ghaza strip they gave to Egypt.  Rather than continue
fighting, they allowed the Jordanian Arab Legion (their army) to control parts
of Samaria and Judea including part of Jerusalem.  In an effort to bring
peace, they let the Hashimites keep this.  The attacks were STILL relentless
and ceaseless, Arabs would NOT STOP, year after year they kept
up.  The Israeli Government made the STUPID mistake of rejecting
Stalin's Russia in favor of capitalist XIAN USA.  Russian aid
to Israel ceased and as Israel became viewed as more capitalist
and religious and allied with the USA and the English BASTARDS,
Russian aids flowed to the ARABS in massive amounts.  By 1956,
the Arabs, with Russian weapons, were trying to oust the English
and French.  Israel seized the moment, took advantage of this
to form a temporary alliance with their hated English enemies
and strike at their Arab tormenters who had been shooting at
them every fucking day.  The Israeli army defeated the Arabs,
then an English and French army came in to take over the Suez
Canal and block the Israelis from moving further onto Arab
territory!  (Jews should have KNOWN BETTER than to side with
CHRISTIAN SCUM rather than side with atheists!  I can not figure to this day
WHY they did this when they had a true friend in the USSR and Stalin.)
It was a DISASTER.  The Russians, now the Krushchevite times, threatened to H-
Bomb Israel!  A huge amount of land was returned to Arab rule despite their
military defeat.  President Eisenhower adandoned Israel and
refused to be an ally!  He sided with the Arabs!  He betrayed
the English and French too in doing this.  The result was more
Arab attacks against Israel, thousands of small attacks.  In
1967, the Israelis launched a MAJOR offensive for a change and
took BACK the entire Sinai and held all of the Golan, ALL of
Samaria, ALL of Judea, ALL of Jerusalem, took ALL of this back
by force (which everyone understands!)  Under pressure from
President Carter the Israelis gave back part of the Golan and
the entire Sinai - it naturally DID NOT bring peace to do this.
It hardened the Arab HATE toward Israel.  Giving land back was
showing weakness and cowardice to an Islamic MACHO culture and
it only spurred the Moslems on to fight more.  Then came the
Yom Kippur war in which the Jews were fasting and praying the
Arabs struck with a sneak attack.  They regained a lot of land
in heavy fighting.  The Jews counterattacked under General SHARON.
He made a BRILLIANT move and utterly routed the
Egyptian army:  the Israelis could have conquered Cairo with
ease since the Arabs were helpless (THEY SHOULD HAVE!)  World
opinion sided with the Arabs and an armistice
was signed under interfascistinal (not an error) pressure.
The UN had only one Jewish Nation, but MANY Islamic ones.
Then, various USA presidents including Reagen and Bush pressured
Israel to make additional concessions.  Eventually, Israel,
under intense pressure, agreed that parts of Samaria and Judea
would be part of a NEW Arab Moslem "Palestinian" nation under
the leadership of Yassir Arafat.  Since then, there has been
nothing but trouble: Suicide bombings, constant riots, rock
throwing, knifing, sniping and since giving this large amount
of land back to these Arabs, the situation is now the WORST
it's ever been.

The younger generation of Arabs sincerely believes that the
answer to the problem is Moslem Arab rule for the entire middle
east with no nation of Israel in existence.  NONE realize that
it was the MOSLEMS that kept those refugees down that it was
THEMSELVES that didn't MOVE ON.  LOTS of countries had refugees
from wars - they all moved on.  Example:  GERMAN refugees from
WWII that used to live in the Soviet lands.  You don't hear
these Germans today WHINING or saying they want their lands
back when those lands were originally SLAVIC lands that they
took (settled in, did NOT buy) and got ousted from.  Stalin
kicked them out:  they STAYED out.  NOBODY was living in those
mid-east lands at one time.  JEWS DEVELOPED THOSE LANDS after
PAYING FOR THEM.  Imperialists played cat and mouse as they
did when LENIN turned the army against them.  The Arabs are
the lowest fucking SCUM of the earth, just look what they do to their own
daughters and sisters and wives for a eye-opener.  The USA government
pandered to the American Jewish vote and gave aid to Israel
while SIMULTANEOUSLY aiding and arming the Arabs on
a massive scale.  JUST LIKE the anglo Brits did.  Also, the
imperialists stir up the sides TO fight each other just as they
do with all STUPID MORONS who don't get a clue. They
also WONT let one side win.  Whenever Israel was winning, they'd
side with Arabs.  Their ACTIONS show they want there to be war.
The talk says the opposite.  Right now, TODAY, the CIA has asked
to be in charge of the so-called peace-negotiations between
the Moslem "Palestinians" of Arafat and the Israeli government.
The Israelis have to be terrified of the USA or stupid or insane
to go along with this.  It's a prescription for disaster.
Past history PROVES that the Arabs ONLY recognize superior FORCE
backed by a strong will to win.  SCUM of the earth and
what they alone do to WOMEN -- oh, that's PROOF ENOUGH.  Veils,
cut off clitoruses, sewn up female areas the whole nightmare.

         end post Jeff Gerber, I want the following left in, JG.

NAKIVED has advice?  No...no advice.  Nakived is astounded,
flabberghasted, too enraged to talk.

Dada ANNIHILISMUS has advice, to Israeli Jews:  NUKE the fucking
place so NO ONE can live there and then COME TO THE USA.  LET
the fucking TOWEL-HEADED CLITLESS-WIVED DICK-HEADS HAVE it:
a NEW wasteland, this time a radioactive one.  DO IT. DO IT.
I WOULD.

I do not know why, I cannot FATHOM why the Jews turned their
backs on Stalin.  It's irrational. Stalin had been their friend.
He GAVE them a nation, even.  Some Jews moved there!  Anglos
had been their two-faced enemies for the most part, tho many
Jews were such sickening anglophiles and even germanophiles.
Most Jews of that time were so left wing that they could be
Reds, many WERE Reds living in the capitalist world.  WHY did
they do this?  I don't know.  BUT -- Stalin should have been
more tolerant and CONTINUED to help them just on the principle
alone - tho I doubt Stalin knew Jewish history at all and he
sure the hell NEVER understood "Jewish" as anything BUT a
religious thing.  That's obvious: he didn't think of Kaganovich
as Jewish at all because Kaganovich was an atheist.  In siding
with the Islamic scum, Stalin, and all Communists from thence on, have
sided with something even MORE anti-Communist than an American
capitalist could possibly be.  You don't have to hate a nation
that hates you, tho Israel never HATED USSR at any time.  You
can STILL like them and aid them and perhaps try to UNDERSTAND
their feelings.  I know that in getting involved in the Islamic
lands, the USSR was actually vying with the USA over the OIL
shit.

See Goldhagen!  Israelis should STOP showing kindness, STOP being
lenient to rabid fucking dogs.  They should also tell the USA to GO FUCK
ITSELF since we know that the Americans ain't gonna bomb them.  Too bad there
is NOT a real Jewish World Conspiracy which even the Islamic shit
is believing these days.  IF THERE WAS then they could simply
BREAK every fucking nation economically that was against them
or militarily against them.   In this case, the Jews are NOT
like the Anglos regarding the Amerinds at all.  They are NOT
like the Anglo-Germans regarding the Slavs either, tho that
situation is JUST LIKE the Anglos/Amerinds.  Jews used to LIVE there until
Roman imperialists kicked them out.  OK:  that's too long ago?
OK then, Amerinds owned lands we live on:  TOO LONG AGO to
matter.  Equal equal.  If conquest IS the order of the day,
then the Israelis should NUKE their enemies.  Get it over with.
Kahani was right.  NO QUARTER, NO COMPROMISE.  SMASH THEM ALL,
EVERY SINGLE ONE, MAN, WOMAN, CHILD.  ALL.

I know that this post alone, Jeff or me alone here, is NOT going to
dissuade a whole Red Line of Dogma that started due to Stalin
being IN THE POSITION of an imperialist force himself, and then
Krushchev being a state capitlist imperialist for real!  Stalin
was in the SAME POSITION as the imperialists back then having
just been ALLIES with them, to boot.  Zionism is many things,
depending on WHO defines it.  It started out as a movement
amongst people who wanted to GO HOME to where they were ousted
by imperial Romans.  It became semi-religious later on, some
incentive to MOVE Jews to move there. Now the Islamics have
MADE IT into a relgious issue.  NO ONE WAS THERE for the most
part but still, Turks AND Arabs made Jews PAY FOR the place.
It was wasteland.  Jews DEVELOPED it. ONLY THEN did the Arabs
infest the place like pests, in droves of starving people,
victims of their OWN shitty regimes, looking for jobs and such.
ONLY THEN.  The Jews should NEVER have let them in - NEVER.
That was their second mistake.  These scum LOVE Islam so much?
Let them STAY in it..  You can not deal kindly with RABID DOGS.
You have to shoot them.  PERIOD.  Since the imperialist
bomb-happy USA loves oil so much, I would actively SUPPORT their
military take over of these Islamic scums and support their
legislating LAWS against their religiously insane practices.
That's not culture to do such things unless you mean it as
sex-culture:  SADISM.  I'd do one better:  the Tatar way.  Leave
there a PILE of corpses in pyramidal form to rival the big stupid stone tombs
built for the Pharoahs.  To the last living THING.  That's how the Tatars USED
to deal with these two-faced fucking scum when they played this kind of shit
with them.  MASSACRE them.  And while we are at it, Budenny SHOULD have
marched the Red Army straight into England and let Beria send
them ALL to the gulag.  TO PERISH.  That's not conquest, MIM.
THAT IS VENGEANCE!

ANY RED that sides with Islam as ANTI WOMAN.  An ENEMY
of life and womanhood.  There ain't NO blaming honky or
capitalists for the SHIT they do in Islamic countries.  They
did it WORSE long ago.  Jews have ALWAYS been the friends of Communism.  But
ISLAMICS?  They are the diametric opposite, the absolute enemies of it.
They are the absolute enemies of womanhood and equality.  There
is scum, and then there is absolute scum.  There are degrees
of it.   When it comes to SMASHING what I see as an enemy, I
don't give a hoot WHO owns the bombs that kill them.  And any
Jew out there STUPID enough to whine against this polemic in
favor of the POOR Islamic people may as well go KISS the fucking
Gestapo on the lips and open your legs for them.

MIM replies:
Jeff Gerber seems to take a pro-Zionist stance in the sense
of being pro-imperialist at least in action. On the other hand,
Gerber also opposes militarism and capitalism at least in 
passing.

Both Gerber and Nakived disagree with MIM on the principal contradiction
in the world--the oppressed nations versus the oppressor nations. To
their credit, they have done more than the rest of Marxism Space to give
reasons. Many in Marxism Space don't agree with MIM, but can't quite
spit it out and others hypocritically say they agree when they in fact
don't have the foggiest idea what it really means to say that the
principal contradiction is between the oppressed nations and oppressor
nations. Against Gerber and Nakived, they repeat some of the same tired,
old accusations with no basis in fact about MIM and the old Black
Panther Party having a race line and not a class line. As MIM 
has stressed here repeatedly, first we have to answer the
question of who is having surplus-value extracted from them
and who is not.

Gerber and Nakived raise two problems for communists. First,
what happens when the oppressed nations favor oppression of
wimmin? How can communists side with oppressed nations?

MIM answers that there is no end of division that the imperialists
can sow by asking this sort of question. At the same time,
it is necessary that the leadership of revolution be in the
hands of proletarian feminists.

Secondly, and this requires analysis, what is to say that
prioritizing the struggle against Islam will actually produce
more gains for wimmin than prioritizing the struggle of
oppressed nations against oppressor nations? Patriarchy is
rampant everywhere, and singling out the womyn question in this
context whitewashes patriarchy in the imperialist countries.

Mao's method did the most to break
down patriarchy the fastest. At first glance in the history
books one might think Mao was the George Washington of his
country. However, it goes further than that, because Mao
also led the revolution with the greatest gains for wimmin,
which is not to say that the struggle against patriarchy
there was done or could rest on its laurels. Although Mao's
revolution brought such rapid progress for wimmin, it was
not a revolution targetting patriarchy or men as the principal
enemy at any point.

Another important point raised by Gerber regards imperialist
militarism. He has drawn the connection between U.$. imperialism,
profit and arming of both sides in the Middle East. We have
to agree with him there, as anti-militarism in imperialist
countries is very important. Seizing U.$. weapons for liberation
in oppressed nations is one thing, but becoming a puppet
of the U.$. arms traders and government is another thing.
Siding with oppressed nations does not mean siding with
U.$. puppet governments.





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