From: mim3-AT-mim.org
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:09:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: M-G: Re: Communism vs. socialism


[Neil says:]
Dear Sheila,

The  maoist state-capitalist MIM notes people 
are scamming you here. They are uncritical supporters
of stalinism and all its horrid crimes against the working class.

[MIM3 replies: Sheila, the following from Neil is actually an improvement
over the usual. Most people on this "Marxism Space" are attacking MIM from
the vantage point of anti-party idealism. Here, Neil at least leaves a
reference to a website he supports at the very bottom. The same cannot be
said for Rolf Martens for instance who repeatedly attacks on subjects like
MIM's line on gender, on which he hasn't said a single thing. (I don't
know if Neil's "italianleft" www site does either.) At least both PLP and
MIM take stances and take their lumps for them. Rolf Martens has not
written any positions on gender and there was a degenerated former
pseudo-communist named Neil who did the same thing on this list: attack
MIM without standing for anything. 

It would be better to stay with PLP than join up with most of the scum in
"Marxism Space."  Very few people in "Marxism Space" are actually
struggling in any way toward anything. PLP at least is a party and some
people in there do actually study and struggle.]

[Neil continues:]
They  in fact sell a outrageous apologetic book  for  failed stalinist 
state cap regimes called ,  (and NO joke!) "Was Stalin really a Tyrant?"
MIM politics go along with their economics , with  state capitalist 
economy and political tyranny and oppression- with workers
having only enfoced   illegality to build and construct their own 
class wide organizations, economic and political to oppose
the Maoist  ruling class exploiters
Dung Shao Pingism in China today is the logical continuation
 (for the bosses) of the Maoist project in ruins. .

Do you not find it amazing that MIM can write voluminous 
tomes about their  "great helmsman" Mao and nary a word
about workers own organizations of class struggle , soviets,
mass assemblies,  workers councils, groups  etc. anywhere? This is clear 
indicator of what kind of society they would want to foist 
on any gullible "people" who get mislead by their  religion 
of Maoism. 

[MIM3 replies: The above is either ignorance or a conscious lie. MIM
distributes thousands, maybe tens of thousands of pages of literature on
the subject of "workers own organizations" in China and the Soviet Union.]

[Neil continues:]
I emphasize the MIMs own  term of endearment 'people' here as
they ususally don't go near any real workers (at least 
in the imperialist centers--as MIM considers all these
workers, all white ones anyway- to be but one huge 
mass of 'bribed labor aristocrats".

[MIM3 replies: The above is true progress. Neil now knows what MIM
thinks about imperialist country workers and he doesn't have to make it
up!]

They talk on a lot about" oppressed people", not workers, to justify 
their  unprincipled alliances with other national capitalists,
mainly in the peripheral areas of world capitalism, but
in the US as well..  . 

[MIM3 replies: For all the difference it makes to degenerates like Neil,
"principled" means "ungodly." It means nothing about making progress
toward concrete communist goals.]

No wonder they never go anywhere near the working
class, which in spite of capitalist exploitation and plunder,
is somewhat integrated in production and exchange  . 

[MIM3 replies: What Neil really means is that he persynally would be
AFRAID to go anywhere near the working-class with MIM's line. He knows
nothing but tailing after what people say, nothing of struggle. Too bad
for Neil, because if he ever did try talking to even just a few thousand
workers, he would find that they believe MIM's line makes much more sense
than his does.  Most find his and others on Marxism Space's talk about
there being a "revolutionary"  or "exploited"  imperialist country working
class to be so far-fetched as to be borderline psychotic.]

Another thing, MIM thinks  this is a misfortune! 
They like segregation much better.. 

[MIM3 replies: This is Neil's way of saying he favors Martin Luther King's
peaceful road of struggle. Unfortunately, PLP does too in a more
round-about way.]

They (MIM) are not for workers rule  &  a society that will in the
transition period, (lower stage of communism-socialism)
phase out money, waged labor, capital , commodity prodution
and exploitation of person by person and build a worker council
run planned  economy to serve human needs, not exploitation and 
profits..

MIM is instead for Maoist  state-capitalism , where you still have 
the laws of capitalist competition, accumulation cycles, 
waged labor, new  bosses, buying and selling ,poverty ,
insecurity , sexism and want--headed by  (Maoites), etc. 
They to this day parrot out the "glories" of the Stalin rule period
in the ex-USSR (as does PLP as well!) as the hight point 
of their 'socialism" -really failed state capitalism..

[MIM3 replies: Woops, although Neil is making progress, PLP is still
far better. In comparison PLP is solidly materialist. At least they
criticize the movement from the vantage of the war communism phase of
history in the Soviet Union-- something concrete. Neilism is
only ideas, a way of criticizing the real communist movement from
the vantage point of some intellectual's pet preferences much akin to
religion.]

Better to get the basics from Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc.
as you will see  from studying their  basic works on
economics, politics , history, and philosophy that
if MIM has anything to do with Marxism , it would
most likely be of the Grouchoist variety, i.e one can
get a good occasional  belly-laugh.

[MIM3 replies: It's a good thing Neil is admitting to "back to Lenin"
fantasies. It's the first step toward accountability. Now if only we could
Neil to comment on where Neilism has succeeded concretely instead of
criticizing real world progress under Stalin and Mao. You will notice that
in his whole post dedicated to attacking us, he left that out.
That's typical for the 
criticize-from-the-standpoint-of-ideas-intellectuals on the Marxism
Space. They have strong anti-party prejudices.]






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