Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 23:29:16 +0200 From: jgautero-AT-hermes.unice.fr (Jean-Luc Gautero) Subject: Re: M-I: Stanley on science I have read nothing of Stanley Aronowitz, so I can't write about the interest (or non-interest) of his writings, but it seems tou disagree with him on points where he writes (os is it my bad knowledge of english) nearly the same as wrote Marx. I quote first your quotation: >But that's not Stanley's picture of science. "I want to insist," he >insists, "that the convention of treating natural and human sciences >according to a different standard be dropped.... I want to treat the >controversies within each domain as aspects of the same general >problematic: How are the objects of knowledge constructed? What is the role >of the culturally conditioend 'worldviews' in their selection? What is the >role of socail relations in determining what and how objects of knowledge >are investigated? ... [T]he distinctions between the natural and human >sciences are not as significant as their similarities." Then Marx, German Ideology (first I try to translate it from my french text, then I quote the french text if my english is os bad that you don't understand it) =46euerbach speaks mainly about the conception of natural sciences, quoting secrets which only physicist or chimist can see. But where would be natural science without industry and trade? This "pure" natural science take its aim, as its materials, first, from trade, industry and concrete activity of humankind. (...) Sure, the priority of external nature remains; sure, this probably does not work for fist humen, created by generatio aequivoca; but this distinction has a meaning only as so far as you regard humanity as distinct from nature. This nature which came before human history is not the one in which lives Feuerbach; such a nature, which do no longer exist nowaday, except perhaps in the south seas, on some recent atolls, does not exist even for Feuerbach. =46euerbach parle surtout de la conception des sciences naturelles, mentionnant des secrets qui ne se dévoilent qu'aux yeux du physicien et du chimiste. Mais ou serait la science de la nature sans industrie ni commerce? Son but, comme ses materiaux, cette "pure" science de la nature les tient elle-meme, en premier lieu, du commerce, de l'industrie et de l'activite concrete des hommes. (...) Cela dit, sans doute, la priorite de la nature exterieure subsiste; sans doute, tout cela ne s'applique aucunement aux premiers hommes crees par generatio aequivoca; mais cette distinction n'a de sens que dans la mesure ou l'on considere l'homme comme distinct de la nature. Du reste, cette nature anterieure a l'histoire humaine n'est pas du tout la nature dans laquelle vit Feuerbach; une telle nature, qui n'existe plus nulle part de nos jours sinon peut-etre dans les mers australes, sur quelques atolls d'origine récente, n'existe donc pas d'avantage pour Feuerbach. I find the same idea in Marx that in your quotation of Aronowitz: natural science is a production of human activity, so you cannot separate strictly natural science from human science. Yet, I agree with you: it seems to me useful to know natural sciences to study them socially. I think some scholars of social studies of science do (e.g. Bruno Latour, Harry Collins), but Sokal and his followers seem me not to make difference between those who do good work though questionable (I think a good work is allways questionable), and those whose writings are empty (the mail of Rahul Marajan about Vandana Siva and others is quite convincing). ------------------------------------------------------------ Jean-Luc Gautero - Centre de Recherches d'Histoire des Idées =46aculté des Lettres - Université de Nice-Sophia Antipolis 98 Boulevard Edouard Herriot - BP 209 - 06204 Nice Cedex 3 Email: jgautero-AT-hermes.unice.fr ------------------------------------------------------------ ++++ stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++ ++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++ ++++ see: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++ --- from list marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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