Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:04:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Justin Schwartz <jschwart-AT-freenet.columbus.oh.us>
Subject: Re: M-I: Cooperatives? Do we need to claim that socialism works?



I think we do need to claim, and in fact to have a reasonable belief, that
socialism works. If it cannot work, what you and I ought to be doing is
working to make capitalism as humane as it can be. If socialism must fail,
then it's a waste of time railing against capitalism and in fact doung so
would inhibit our ability to contribute to making it as least bad as
possible. Socialist arguments that capitalism is exploitative, alienating,
etc. are only arguments for socialism insofar as socialism would be
better. After the 20th century experience, it is the height of
irresponsibility to settle for merely hoping that it would be better. We
have to have rational, although in the nature of things not conclusive,
arguments that socialism would be better.

Developing arguments that it would be better is not an alternative to
practical struggle. If we think socialism woukd be better th\en we should
do more than just say so andf say why. We should work to build it while we
are working on our arguments for its superiority. So Carroll's dilemma is
false. We needn't choose one or the other. In myt experience, struggle to
build socialism involves arguing to rael preople and in real contexts that
it would be better. That's how I got into the modeling business.

All this is so obvious that I feel sort of embvarassed having to say it
at all.

--Justin

On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Carrol Cox wrote:

> At 11:06 Friday January 10 Justin writes:
> 
>     What we need right now as far as a vision of the future
>     goes, is a set of reasonably convincing answers to the
>     worry that socialism won't work under the best circum-
>     stances. This is a major political and intellectual obstacle
>     to winning subordinate groups to socialist ideas.
> 
> Now I actually have, over the last quarter of a century, moved a
> number of people into socialist (revolutionary) activity and
> ideas, and I have moved a rather larger group of people to be
> willing to work with those holding revolutionary positions. BUT:
> 
>     I have never, within such activity, made the claim that
> socialism will work. In fact, I have usually made an oblique
> claim: that it *probably* or at least very possibly, *WON'T*
> work. In other words, I have operated on the basis of an in-
> tensification (towards pessimism) of Rosa Luxemburg's slogan
> of "socialism or barbarianism." My version of it (in serious
> recruiting activity) has been "socialism or barbarianism, and
> probably barbarianism anyhow--but we KNOW what capitalism
> has done, is doing, and with nearly equal certainty know
> what it is forever going to keep on doing."
> 
>     Besides (and this point can be expressed in dozens of
> different rhetorics), it really is better to get clobbered
> fighting (again I spoil the rhythm of the original cliche) on
> your feet than get clobbered on your knees. Fuck models of
> an invisible future.
>     Carrol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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