From: Ishai Parasol <parasol-AT-ibm.net> Subject: RE: M-I: utopian socialism Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:53:34 +-200 Hello. I must agree with Barklry Rosser. 1) In every revolution there must be an utopian element. The meaning of the revolution is to make a realization to the hopes that we have (to get from one situation to another. In our case - from a capitalist to a socialist one). 2) The connection between the utopian socialism and the class struggle revolution is depending on the revolutionary consciousness. If I use LP's example about the israeli kibbutzes I have a proof to this argument. My movement, "Hashomer Hatzair" which is a kibutzes movement, decided on it's foundation convention (1927) that: (I QUOTE): "The kibbutzes movement sees the kibbutz as the: A) Pioneer "cells" of the new society. B) The constructive "tool" of the israeli workers class. C) The "tool" for working immigrants. D) The base for the class struggle in israel. The kibbutzes movement sees zionism revolution as an uncompleted one without a socialist marxist revolution. The kibbutz has an historical constructive part in the israeli class struggle by: - building collective communities all over the country. - maximum pervasion to all the market manufacturing ramifications. - preparing the class for self managing." The problem begun with the third generation in the kibbutzes, which didn't have the revolutionary consciousness (except the movement's education to it). This phenomenon caused the kibbutz to "abandon" its revolutionary goals. Today, in our movement, we have young collective groups that live in communes all over israel (especially in the "low" class neighborhoods and towns)and with our revolutionary consciousness we are involved in communities and education projects together with political involvement in the israeli labor politics and the trade union, and our main goal is a REVOLUTION which bring us to a better & SOCIALIST society. This is an utopian revolution !!! Ishai Parasol Hashomer Hatzair - The Israeli Socialist Youth Movement. Email: parasol-AT-ibm.net ---------- From: Louis N Proyect[SMTP:lnp3-AT-columbia.edu] Sent: =F9=E1=FA 18 é=F0=E5=E0=F8 1997 23:49 To: marxism-international-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Subject: Re: M-I: utopian socialism On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Rosser Jr, John Barkley wrote: > Marx was utopian in his description of communism. > Sounds great, ("from each according to his ability, to each > according to his need" "withering away of the state"), but > we certainly have seen nothing approaching it in any of the > actually existing socialisms. I'm not saying it's > impossible, but it sure looks a lot like an idealistic > utopian dream, and much more so than Louis's goal of > rational global central planning. Louis: This is wrong. I know that most people on this list understand the reason that Marx was not "utopian", but let me just say a word or two just to remind those who are brand-new to Marxism. Utopian socialism is nothing but the attempt to construct socialism in the absence of the class struggle. It tries to construct socialist communities within the context of bourgeois society in order to provide a moral beacon for the rest of society. Rather than abolishing class rule through revolutionary struggle, it tries to build a new society in the bowels of the old. Saint Simon and Fourier were 19th century utopian socialists. Engels polemicized against them in "Socialism--Utopian and Scientific". In the 20th century, the closest we come to this are the Israeli kibbutzes and the Mondragon coops. If you want to get a precise example of utopian socialist thought, look for the article that will appear in Justin Schwartz's book (whenever it comes out) on Mondragon. I heard the authors at the Brecht Forum in NY defending the socialist promise of such coops and I nearly fell out of my chair at the naivete. Apparently Justin thinks that poppycock like this deserves a wider hearing. I wonder if Barkley Rosser knows what Marx meant by "utopian". Perhaps he doesn't. He uses the word in the sense that anticommunist social philosophers do. Karl Popper and others influenced by the Viennese school all have this tendency. They should use a different word than "utopian". One that does come to mind is "revolutionary". The Marxian project is not "utopian", since it is based on an analysis of class relations within the framework of history. The Communist Manifesto is not "utopian". It is revolutionary. And given the sharpening class divisions and the growing proletarianization of the world's population, it is looking more practical day by day. --- from list marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- --- from list marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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