From: "Karl Carlile" <joseph-AT-indigo.ie>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:39:06 +0000
Subject: Re: M-G: Re: M-I: Democratic Congo


DAVE: Insnt this a contradiction. Either socialist revolution can
happen or it can't. If it can they we have a duty to fight for it,
and as you correctly point out fight for a global revolution. Do you
think that a revolution in central Africa would have no
repercussions in the rest of Africa.

KARL: Socialist revolution cannot happen in the countries in the
centre of Africa because both the necessary subjective and objective
are lacking. Revolution must break out in one or more of what is
often called one of the more capitalistically advanced countries if
socialism is to be established. conditions for its establishment.

You naively ask me the following question: Do you think that 
a revolution in central Africa would have no repercussions in the rest
of Africa? What you dont seem to be able to grasp is the simple fact 
that socialist revolution cannot take place in these backward places. 
Consequently there is no question of any repercussions.

Even if it were possible which is not for socialist revolution to
establish itself in the regions under question it would not last long
because of capitalist encirclement. You suggest that the masses in
the surrounding African countries would break with imperialism in
support of this revolution. There is no evidence to show that this is
the case. At this point you are grasping at straws by engaging in
this kind of feeble speculation. It is nice and comfy for people like
you to recommend to the masses in Africa that they rise up against
the system in this and that way when your skin is not at stake. I'm
sure they will be very relieved to have your word for it that the
masses in the surrounding countryside will break with imperialism.
However if events were to prove you wrong it is these masses who will
suffer immediately not you, comfortably sitting in front of your PC
sipping coffee or whatever.

The point is that all this rhetoric of yours is all extremely 
hypothetIcal stuff. The point is that it is not possible to establish 
a socialist revolution within the limits of a few backward countries. 
The conditions for socialism entail highly developed productive forces 
which do not exist in this particular places.

DAVE: What kind of obscurantist trotskyism are you a refugee from? Lenin 
makes a distinction between a socialist revolution - the Bolshevik 
revolution - and building socialism in Russia, the former happening 
because Russia was the `weakest link' in imperialism, the latter not 
happening unless the world revolution came to the rescue. 
Isnt that good enough for Zaire too? Or do we tell the workers and 
peasants to wait until some more advanced state with a "fully" 
developed working class begins its revolution before they rise up?
Don't you see this is a left cover for democratic imperialism.?

KARL: Bully for you! So what if Lenin said this or that. He is not
god. Just becaue Saint Lenin made a statement does not mean it is
correct. I suppose if he said it is reactionary to wipe your arse
with white toilet paper inbstead you would say he is right. A
statement taken from the works of dear Lenin can never be a
substitute for argument.

DAVE:If Leninism is counter-revolution you are going to have lots of 
trouble recognising  the prescribed pre-conditions for revolution,
because even Lenin admitted that in revolutionary times he got left 
behind,  and the rest of the Bolsheviks were behind him.  

KARL: Perhaps this was one of the few times when what Saint Lenin
said is true. However it is also a statement of his that may offer
a good reason for subbing off  Leninism.

Instead of responding to my argument with a counter-argument you offer
me a series of rhetorical questions. Such a response suggests
inability to defend your own politics. As with many people on this and
other Spoon lists it is virtually impossible to develop argument and
discussion with you. This is evidence of the weakness of revolutionary
politics in the contemporary world today and just goes to prove my
point. 


                                      




                                Yours etc.,
                                           Karl   


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