Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:20:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Louis Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu>
Subject: M-I: Clarification on "children"


Thanks to Todd. I have one explanation by the way on my reference to
"children". I was not talking about the younger members of the list who are
new to Marxism. I was talking instead about the people on the list, some of
whom are in their fifties, who appear interested only in establishing their
own "revolutionary" credentials at the expense of others. These are members
of self-anointed revolutionary vanguard parties who seem to compensate for
their lack of impact in real world with displays of braggadoccio in cyberspace.

The reason I consider this childish behavior is that it reflects an
inability to confront reality. Part of growing up consists of learning to
socialize with others. A three year old demands constant attention. They
have out of control egos. We have the equivalent on our mailing list with
people who see themselves as GREAT REVOLUTIONARY LEADERS and demand
everybody's respect. If they don't get that respect, they just raise their
voices and shake their fists like any out of control three year old.

An important aspect of socialist politics is social relations. The workers
movement will succeed not because it has great geniuses but because workers
will find it necessary to band together and fight against their oppression.
Unless this process begins to take place, no great leaders will emerge. We
are striving to establish correct social relations on this list, a small
niche in the socialist movement. Some people refuse to be socialized. They
must consider this a sign of "Menshevism" or something.

This list can serve a useful purpose for Marxists in a *preparatory* period
like the one we are traveling through by helping to clarify their ideas and
exchange information. The proper tone is one of the classroom, not of the
parliament. We We need reports, papers and informed opinion. When we have
debates they should be comradely and considerate.

And the type of classroom I am talking about is the one that can be found at
Zeynep's workers education center in Istambul where ordinary working-people
can discuss Turkish politics, postmodernism, etc. It is also the kind of
classroom that the Russian Social Democracy organized around the
turn-of-the-century where Lenin used to give lectures on vol 1 of Capital.
This type of self-education and political clarification is exactly what we
need in this period that so resembles Russia in 1901 or 1902.

Louis Proyect




At 09:28 AM 3/12/97 -0500, Todd Freeburg wrote:
>
>Greetings all:
>
>I have learned a great deal about Marxism current and past on this list,
>and hope to continue to do so.  I have particularly enjoyed and been
>made to think by L. Proyect's posts.  I include a bit from one of his
>last posts here:
>
>
>
>3. To everybody else:
>Stick around, I have some brilliant posts in store. This weekend I will be
>discussing John Roemer, Rigoberto Menchu and the question of corn. The
>following week I will try to get to the bottom of the Lenin-Luxemburg
>difference over the nationality question to launch the cyberseminar. These
>two items will be instant classics. Short upon the heels of these efforts
>will be some very high-class posts on the question of nationalism from
>some of the stars on our list. Once we get rolling the interlopers will
>have a hard time making themselves felt. When we have serious discussion
>of Marxist topics, people with limited knowledge of politics will be left
>in the dust. When I was young and my parents wanted to talk about some
>private matters, they would converse in Yiddish. I used to go to my room
>until they started speaking in English again. I simply had nothing to
>contribute while they were speaking in Yiddish. That is what will happen
>when we start to raise the theoretical level of the list to where we left
>off last month before I went on my vacation. The children on our mailing
>list will go to their room because they have nothing to say to the adults.
>
>
>Louis Proyect
>
>
>
>A while back -- maybe three months ago -- someone commented that a good
>number of the discussions on this list were carried on at a level that
>was generally out of reach for your average worker.  A comment to that
>post replied that we cannot assume that workers cannot grasp the more
>philosophical discussions on this list; it is a patronizing and likely
>false assumption.  Well, I'd like to point out that I can't follow the
>more philosophical discussions on the list, and I would like to be able
>to understand what is being argued.
>
>I am a graduate student in biology, and have had to learn over the years
>how to write for different audiences.  Describing my work to a general,
>non-biological crowd requires of my writing different things than
>describing my work to people who carry out studies and address questions
>similar to mine.  I would request of the folks on this list, as one who has
>the full awareness that he is a child in his Marxist development, that you
>all write for a "general" audience as much as possible.  Lose the jargon.
>If you can, when you bring up names of revolutionaries, politicians, or
>philosophers that perhaps only 100 people on the planet are aware of, try
>to give a brief description of those people.  To be blunt about it and to
>quote Denzel Washington from "Philadelphia", "tell it to me as if I were
>an eight year old".  This is obviously an exaggeration, but ya gets my
>drift.  For example, a number of the discussions are about British
>politicians and groups about which I am totally unfamiliar.  I would bet
>that many folks on the other side of the ocean (either one) have the same
>lack of knowledge about groups like the Sparts or the RCP here.
>
>I read and study as much as I can, but with limited time tend to delete
>posts on this list if I cannot grasp the argument in the first several
>lines.  I realize my request will be trounced by some who would not want
>to "speak down" to others, who want to carry on these discussions at
>high levels.  That's fine.  I'm just pointing out that you lose me when
>you do this, and I would bet you lose a good many others.  To me, at some
>level, the point of all of our efforts is to be build an inclusive
>foundation for a workers' revolution.  I am trying to study my way into
>these discussions, but find it a lot like speaking a different language
>at times.  While immersion is the best way to learn a new language for
>those who have the ability to do so, it is not often practical, and in
>our case may be counter-productive.
>
>Enough rambling from me.  I hope this message finds you all well.  In
>solidarity,
>
>todd
>
>
>
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Todd M. Freeberg                   Dept. of Biology
>Indiana University                       Jordan Hall
>Bloomington, IN 47405          (812)855-0511
>
>
>"...language, like blood, is a living thing that
>proceeds forward in time."
>                -- Andrei Codrescu
>"...language is both a living thing and a museum
>of fossils of life and past civilizations."
>                -- Antonio Gramsci
>
>
>
>
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>
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