From: oebgdk-AT-blackbox.at (Lorenz Glatz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:31:22 +0100 Subject: Re: M-I: "that sentence about relations of production becoming a fetter" Lorenz Glatz, Austrian, new in this list CARROL: >A major fault of Marx's. He wrote that sentence about relations of >production becoming a fetter on the forces of production, and even though >that concept is in contradiction to the whole thrust of his work (it gives >a mechanically determinist view of history), he kept saying things off and >on which give modern technological determinists ammunition. REED >So let the discussion begin! BEN: >In my opinion, "that sentence" by Marx represents the essence of >Marxism. >The reason, in my view, that the overthrow of bourgeois rule is >inevitable--is that bourgeois rule (and the capitalist relations which >are inseparable from it) will inevitably become a greater and greater >drag >on the development of the productivity of labor (productivity being >defined >in terms of the creation of tangible and intangible goods, services, >science >and culture that are of real benefit to the entire population). Though CARROL >doubts that this is the sort of issue that can be >profitably discussed by e-mail and though actually nobody posted anything on this matter since then I'd like to make three remarks on the issue: 1. At least the feudal relations of production were indeed "a fetter on the forces of production", that had to be destroyed by the young capitalist classes. 2. Ben's "creation of tangible and intangible goods, services, science and culture that are of real benefit to the entire population" in my opinion isn't Marx's concept of productivity. Capitalism in fact is "condemned" to ever developping more and stronger forces of production out of its very nature, but these forces more and more turn out to be the opposite of "real benefit to the entire population", to be productive in terms of profit but destructive in every other sense. Maybe this is the special kind of "fetter" capitalism puts on the forces of production, a "fetter" that has to be destroyed in this period of history. 3. I think Ben is right to declare "that sentence" to be essential in Marx's thought. Not only in the meaning of a real perspective - the historical end of capitalism - but also in a sense that establishing socialism needs not only revolutionary efforts but also highly developped forces of production. I dare saying if we take measure in Marx's words (e.g. in "Kritik des Gothaer Programms" [sorry I' have never read what the title is in English]), we haven't seen any socialism so far. I hope I could make me understood, but I've learned much more Latin and Greek than English in my young days. -- ***********************Black*Box Online Community*********************** * palazzo - die virtuelle Bastelwelt | http://www.blackbox.at/palazzo/ * ************************************************************************ Black*Box FirstClass BBS: +43-1-4073132 (Modem) | http://www.blackbox.at --- from list marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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