File spoon-archives/marxism-international.archive/marxism-international_1998/marxism-international.9802, message 56


From: "Rosser Jr, John Barkley" <rosserjb-AT-jmu.edu>
Subject: Re: M-I: AG Frank etc. again
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:12:42 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)


Jim B.,
     Hmmm, let me see if I can pinpoint real differences 
here, which are fewer than might seem to some observers of 
this discussion (e.g. Nestor).
     1)  The discussion of Vikings has become a sideshow 
but was originally brought up by me to show that 
"democracy" is a sideshow to this question.  The Vikings 
were not the ultimate source of economic progress or 
capitalism in Europe or the world, but peripheral actors in 
same largely, even though they may have been the immediate 
founders of continuously existing democracy in Europe.  
This was really brought up to show the irrelevance of the 
"despotism" part of the "oriental despotism" argument, 
clearly an extremely Eurocentric and "orientalist" 
phrase/formulation/argument, linked closely if not exactly 
with the "Asiatic mode of production" argument.  
     Now, I happen to agree with Mark Jones that what 
Wittfogel was really about was a political attack on 
Stalin.  And, although I think Stalin was a despot, blaming 
this on OD or AMP was ridiculous.  Indeed, Peter the Great 
was a "westernizer" and technological progressive, but was 
also highly despotic and instituted a major increase of 
oppression of serfs in Russia.  That people think there is 
a link between democracy and capitalism probably has more 
to do with the emergence of its industrial phase in Britain.
     2)  My remark about the majority of population in 
Flanders being urban only holds under broad definitions of 
urban. Certainly China had bigger cities than did Europe at 
that time.  But the overwhelming proportion of population 
in China was urban and remained as much as 85% so as 
recently as a couple of decades ago.  There was without 
question a major increase in urbanization in the 
Flanders-North Italy corridor from 1000 to 1300, and this 
is not a myth due to alleged "Eurocentrists".  BTW that 
first strike in Douai was in 1245, not 1282.
     3)  I am in deep water a bit as I have not read Jim's 
book, so I am only responding to what he says here.  It has 
seemed at times that he is arguing that China was growing 
more than Europe until 1492 and at other times that they 
were growing equally until 1492.  We do not disagree that 
there was a qualitative change in 1492 and that Europe's 
raiding in the Western Hemisphere and initiating direct 
trade with East Asia aided its acceleration of growth (or 
maybe Jim disagrees with the second point). Arguments that 
there were few innovations in Europe prior to 1492 seem 
difficult to sustain, the printing press being just one of 
many examples.
     4)  Much of this gets back to that original question 
of the "world economy": when was there one?  My position is 
that of Braudel:  Prior to 1492 there were distinct 
"world-economies" that nevertheless had some linkages 
between each other.  There was one in Europe, one in the 
Middle East, one in South Asia, one in East Asia, and 
others in other parts of the world as well.  Certainly 
there were strong linkages between some of these.  But the 
Europe-East Asia link was very weak and mostly indirect 
prior to 1492.  Technical innovations flowed from China to 
Europe, but did so often very slowly, via intermediaries, 
without direct links, despite occasional figures such as 
Marco Polo who made the whole journey. There was trade 
between Rome and Han China, but it was not direct.  There 
were demographic links occasionally as events in Central 
Asia would lead to migrations affecting both China and 
Europe, a key to Gunder Frank's argument.
     Bottom line:  I don't see there being a single "world 
economy" until the links were direct.  That came with 1492 
and 1498.  Prior to that it was mostly indirect linkages.  
Indeed, Gunder Frank argues that at least in Eurasia there 
was a single world economy thousands of years ago.  Maybe, 
but I think that is what one has to go to if one accepts 
indirect linkages as constituting unified systems, seeing 
"holistic unities where there are none".
Barkley Rosser
On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:34:21 -0500 james m blaut 
<70671.2032-AT-CompuServe.COM> wrote:

> Barkley:
> 
> You: Not sure what you consider to be so "romantic" about 
> this business with the Vikings.  Everything that I have 
> said about their role in developing parliaments is widely 
> accepted historical fact.  Go check it out in pretty much 
> any source.
> 
> Me: I don't have time to look up those sources. Anyway, your Viking theory
> fits perfectly in the old "Germanic tribes" theory -- supposedly the
> fountainhead of European democracy, progressiveness, etc.
> 
> You: Well, I have agreed with you that 1492 was crucial, 
> but to argue (and I confess to not having read your book) 
> that there was no acceleration of European economic growth 
> or technological change prior to 1492 is pretty hard to 
> maintain.
> 
> Me: I don't say that. I argue that medieval progressin Europe was on a par
> with that in other parts of the hemisphere.
> 
> You: Braudel and quite a few others see an 
> initial takeoff around 1000 following the end of the Viking 
> raids.  There was a further acceleration after 1200 that 
> coincided with the raiding by Western Europeans
> 
> Me: Screw Braudel and all the other Eurocentric historians who think that
> Europe had some quality for progress not possessed by others in the same
> period.
>  
> You: I note that 
> during the 1200s we saw in North Italy and Flanders for the 
> first time probably the first places in world history where 
> a majority of population was in some sense "urban". 
> 
> Me: Not so: urbanization was much more advanced in Asia than in Europe in
> that period. This is not even controversial.
> 
> You: Nascent capitalism was already going by the 13th 
> century in Western Europe 
> 
> Me: and elsewhere 
> 
> Jim  
> 
> 
>      --- from list marxism-international-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---

-- 
Rosser Jr, John Barkley
rosserjb-AT-jmu.edu




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