From: "Ben Seattle" <icd-AT-communism.org>
Subject: M-I: some ideas re: a new home for m-i
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:46:18 -0700


Hi everyone,

I have mixed feelings about Louis Godena's proposal for a new home for
m-i.

Mark Jones has implied that Louis Godena will usurp and "privatise our
commons".  Godena argues that he is simply rescuing the list from
oblivion.  The truth is that the cultural and political level of these
lists is so low that both of these positions are equally true.

On the one hand, Louis is willing to do the work that is required to
keep the mailing list essentially intact.  That is the best (and only)
offer we have had so far.  Mark Jones says that "Anyone can rent a
server.  It's no big deal."  This may be true--but Louis Godena has
offered to do it and Mark Jones has not.  And *that* is a big deal.

On the other hand, I do not have a lot of trust that Louis Godena will
be able to keep his bonapartist tendencies in check.  Louis says that he
is going to "somewhat revise the moderator panel".  I have no problem
with revising the panel of moderators.  My problem is that it looks like
this may evolve into a situation where Louis Godena will be able to
appoint or dismiss moderators at his pleasure.  In simpler terms, Godena
will run the show.

Now Godena assures us that he is trustworthy:

     "My plan right now is to pretty much continue
     with the *status quo ante*. No Murrays or
     provocateurs or nut-cases allowed."

In fact, Godena says that he will "guarantee" that the new list, under
his benevolent dictatorship, will be "a whole lot better".  I am not the
only one here who is skeptical.

It was only last December that Godena permanently expelled Viraj
Fernando from m-science because "he attempted to foster a hostile
environment".  This expulsion was opposed by everyone on m-science who
wrote on the matter (with the exception of Andrew Wayne Austin--who had
actually incited the tempest in the teapot).  Godena simply stonewalled
the many different readers who asked for justification.  And it was only
last January that Godena attempted to intimidate Louis Proyect on m-i
for a similar attempt to foster a "hostile environment".  Godena's
threat to suspend/expel Proyect fell flat because the other moderators
felt that Godena's position was absurd.

But if Godena can handpick the panel of moderators, what was absurd last
January might be perfectly agreeable next January.

Godena has *never* recognized or admitted that his Clint Eastwood style
expulsion/threats to Viraj and Proyect were out of line and destructive
to the development of the lists.

"Marxist" moderation which proves unable to resist the temptation to
squash and censor what it doesn't like--is actually something of an
occupational disease.  We also have the example of LeninList, which was
almost destroyed when one of the moderators (Jim Hillier--the one who
was actually doing all of the considerable work) launched a "coup
d'etat" and seized control from the other moderators (on the pretext of
a somewhat questionable formulation by Adolfo--but actually because the
discussion on Cuba was going in a direction that he did not think was
healthy).

These things will continue to happen until the cultural level of these
lists is raised and it becomes increasingly difficult for moderators to
find inspiration in Dirty Harry movies.

For now, however, I think that Godena's proposal will have to be
accepted.  We have no other offers and "beggers can't be choosers".

What unites most of us is the conviction that the kind of discussion we
have had on m-i is somehow useful or fulfilling.  We should continue
this discussion, even if we must do it on Godena's terms.

We should, however, also keep our eyes on the future.  All of these
lists are still in their infancy.  It will, soon enough, become quite
easy for cub scouts and grade schoolers to set up and manage lists.  And
we should be thinking about what we want.

What we want are lists that are relatively open.  We want the list to be
open to everyone who truely wants to build it--and who is capable of
consistently listening, consistently treating others with respect and
consistently responding (even in the event of provocation) with
intelligent argument.  We want hot-heads and know-it-alls to be
confronted in a "bottom-up" manner (ie: by other readers) rather than
with a "top-down" fiat by the moderator--except in extreme cases of the
terminally disruptive or clueless.

We want lists that can function democratically, in which the moderators
act as *servants* of the list rather than *proprietors*.

This is why it was unfortunate that so few readers chose to endorse the
call of Gary MacLennan, last January, that we elect our own moderators.

Many, or most, on this list dream of a day when society can be run by
the workers and not the bourgeoisie.  The counter-position to these
lofty and noble dreams--is that the very intelligent, learned and
dedicated champions of this concept--may be unable to even run a simple
mailing list in a collective and democratic way.  And that is why we
*need* a "benevolent dictator" like Louis Godena.  This is sad but true.

Here is my proposal:

1) We accept (for now) Godena's offer to be our savior and dictator.

2) We offer to help finance the cost of renting the server by our own
private donations.  This may help Godena to understand that he should
not act like a proprietor.  More importantly, it will help *us*
understand that if we want a list that is worthwhile--that *we* have to
take responsibility for it.  We must recognize that there is no free
lunch.  Most emphatically, we should recognize that private donations
should confer no privileges on anyone.  The list must remain free and as
equal as we know how to make it.  The cost of renting a server is
probably about $500 a year or less (Louis Godena--let us know more about
this in your next post).  This comes out to ten people kicking in $50 or
twenty people kicking in $25.  I will certainly kick in something as
long as others do also.

3) We should think in terms of electing our own moderators.  For now,
the present panel (whether or not "somewhat revised" by Godena) will
have to do.  Real elections, conducted in an intelligent way and a calm
atmosphere, take time.  We will have to *learn* how to do this.  An
infant must learn how to run its own mailing list before it can
overthrow the bourgeosie.

I have a more specific proposal for a panel of moderators.  The panel
could be four people elected for one-year terms.  Two of the terms would
start on May 1st and the other two on November 7th.  Hence we would have
elections twice a year.  This May 1st is almost certainly too soon.
Hence the first election would be in November.

We could also consider making the size of the panel 6 people instead of
4.  The problem with having six people--is that it is unclear whether we
would actually have six living, breathing volunteers for what is often a
thankless job that is frequently rewarded only with abuse.  I think we
could count ourselves as lucky if we have more volunteers than slots on
the moderator panel.  This would be desireable because otherwise there
wouldn't be elections and I suspect that elections would stimulate
thought and discussion about any possible larger purpose to our being
here other than to "talk".

I would suggest that a vote of 3 out of the 4 moderators be required to
expel anyone.  Other than this, we probably want to avoid being too
detailed on this kind of thing because (truthfully) we don't know what
we're doing.

4) The Spoons have done us an enormous favor to us by creating and
managing this list at the cost of *countless hours* of their time.  They
are probably doing us an even bigger favor by insisting that we put into
practice, on a tiny scale, the principles that we claim can guide the
future of humankind.  We really should acknowlege our debt to the
Spoons.  Someone should draft a letter of a few sentences to the Spoon
collective that would, in effect, thank them for kicking us out of the
nest and forcing us to discover whether we have it in us to learn how to
fly.  Once we have such a letter, most of us could electronically "sign"
it.

For democracy in the service
of the working class,

Ben Seattle
----//-// 22.Apr.98



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