From: bsw8-AT-pseud.pseud
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:01:32 -0700
Subject: M-INTRO: Right on GDA? or not?


In response to GDA
Human behavior or nature can't be so easily derived as being something inherent 
in all individuals.  This basically goes back to the relationship between 
structure and individual agency that has been discussed so many times before.  
That is, individuals make their own decisions, however the structure impacts 
how those decisions affect the individual, which in turn influence what 
decisions an individual will make.  For example if an employer decided to 
increase the wages of his workers to provide them with a higher standard of 
living, chances are his business would be adversely affected by this.  These 
extra costs would make it difficult if not impossible to remain competitive 
with businesses that don't behave in this manner.  As a result the employer may 
go out of business.  However if an employer is able to exploit his workers and 
lower the costs of production, profits increase, thus he is rewarded.  Under 
capitalism and previous economic systems selfishness has been rewarded while 
selflessness had been punished (financially).  Therefore an individual under 
such a system has incentives to behave selfishly, this behavior isn't natural, 
it is learned.  Would individuals continue to behave so selfishly if such 
behavior wasn't rewarded and kindness wasn't punished?  

You also state "could we have that same comfort level in a socialist society?  
Maybe some people could, but not nearly as many as those in a capitalist 
society."
Why do you believe this?  The lack of empirical evidence makes this a difficult 
to assert.  Many will point to communist regimes as proof when these regimes 
were only socialist in name, infact you incorrectly stated this as evidence in 
your last message.  The workers under communist regimes didn't own the means of 
production any more than workers under capitalism.  You say that under 
socialism only some could live at the same level of comfort as under capitalism 
but most would not, when the whole driving ideology behind socialism is just 
the opposite.  So why is it that you believe that this is the case?  Do you 
mean that capitalism would be more productive and therefore provide a higher 
level of comfort for everyone?  I'm not trying to be insulting I just don't see 
your reasoning behind your statement.

Marx didn't provide much of an alternative to capitalism, instead he send most 
of his time critiquing capitalism.  This is not to say others have not.  
Recently I was recommended "Looking Forward" by Michael Albert and Robin 
Hahnel.  This book describes what a socialist system might look like.  I 
haven't bought the book yet however it's available for reading online.  I'll 
provide the link in case anyone else is interested.  So far it's an easy read 
and very interesting.   http://www.parecon.org/lookingforward/toc.htm


--- GDA-AT-pseud.pseud wrote:
Where would be without capitalism? Is socialism the better of the two? Human 
nature would not change in a socialist society. People would still be people, 
and greed and want would still be there. We as humans have evolved to want 
comfort in our lives. Could we have that same comfort level in a socialist 
society? Maybe some people could, but not nearly as many as those in a 
capitalist society. We have become very materialistic, very property oriented. 
Is that a bad thing? If we chose not to buy the material possessions what would 
happen to the jobs of the people who produce such things?Also, when we talk 
about the worker, who has to work to survive. The capitalist has to work to 
survive as well. They take great risks when starting a company, they take out 
the loans, they are responsible if anything happens. Karl marx lived in a 
different era then we do, thats obvious, a lot has changed since then. So what 
do can we do? I think one thing is volunteer, help others who cannot help 
themselves. There always be people who 'take' the 'sucker fish' as a friend 
calls them. But that is human nature, there are people who are content with 
doing nothing and taking everything. And there are those who enjoy working and 
doing their part, we need more of those. GDA 






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