Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 23:14:38 -0800 (PST)
From: shawn214-AT-pseud.pseud
Subject: Re: M-INTRO: Right on GDA



--- The_Kailua_Kid-AT-pseud.pseud wrote:
> The socialist societies that preceded us in history
> were not true socialist societies. Many of them were
> socialist in name only. 
I agree with this.  It is like how our societies are
"democratic" in name only.
The socialist/communist
> regimes I presume you are referring to, such as the
> Soviet Union and it's satellite states, were more
> authoritarian, and had to resort to central planning
> because they didn't have sufficient means of
> production. 
They were also formed in incredible civil war. 
Central planning was as "political" as it was
economic.
In some cases the means of production
> weren't truly owned by the workers, as bsw8 stated
> in
> his contribution to this topic, they were controlled
> by those in positions of political power. 

Change some to all.

The lack
> of
> sufficient means of production was one of the
> contributing factors to the collapse of these
> "socialist" states.

Trying to acheive balance between the the peasants
(agriculture) and trying top grow an urban population
was the dilemmna in China and the Soviet Union.

> It is possible, however, to have a socialist country
> and enjoy a high standard of living. The HDI
> mentioned
> in Raleigh's message on Nov. 14th is a good gage of
> countries that have a high living standard. Sweden,
> Norway, and Denmark are all socialist democracies,
> and
> they each have high standard of living, and
> consequently are near the top of the HDI index.
Why consider them socialist?  The workers do not own
the means of production.  They do rock in almost every
measure to the US though, as far as I am concerned. 
In the Industrialized world we Americans have it bad
(real wages, vacation, health care, etc).  Realising
that our bosses and political parties screw us is
painful.
  
> --- GDA-AT-pseud.pseud wrote:
> > What do you think happened with socialists
> societies
> > before us?  
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: <The_Kailua_Kid-AT-pseud.pseud>
> > To: <marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU>
> > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: M-INTRO: Right on GDA
> > 
> > 
> > > In response to baseball's comments:
> > > 
> > > It'd be great if we could improve our current
> > system,
> > > but that's not likely to happen when the rich
> > wield so
> > > much lobbying power in our government. Like a
> tick
> > > that just digs in deeper to maintain it's
> > position,
> > > the capitalists will fight to maintain the
> status
> > quo,
> > > or further tip the scales in their favor. Trying
> > to
> > > make the best of the system we have will
> > eventually
> > > lead to a breakdown of the system. The growing
> > > disparity between rich and poor, along with the
> > > gradual elimination of the middle-class, will
> > > eventually set the stage for revolution. At some
> > point
> > > everyone who is being exploited by the
> capitalist
> > > system will get fed up with it, and cast it off.
> > > Realistically, that's the only way I can see any
> > > positive change for the laborers in our country.
> > > 
> 
> 
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