From: bobcat-AT-pseud.pseud Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:27:44 -0600 These have all been excellent comments, and it raises some interesting food for thought. One interesting point worth making is that the 2000 election was the fourth time that the person who carried the majority of the popular vote didn't carry enough electoral votes to win. The others were in 1824 (Adams), 1876 (Hayes), and 1888 (Harrison). Similar to this is that five other presidents who carried MORE votes than anyone else didn't get the majority, due to a large number of third-party votes. These were JFK, Nixon, Clinton (twice), Wilson (twice), and Truman. The question, of course, is what do we do to change this system? Most of us agree that we need a different system, but what would that be? I'm going to play the devil's advocate and say that a "true" democracy, where every vote counts the same as every other, may not be the best solution. This is because in periods of civil rights changes, such as Abolition, Women's Suffrage, Civil Rights (1960s), and today's Gay Rights battles, the majority of people (or at least in many geographic areas) seems to have held a position that can be considered inhumane. If these humanitarian issues had been left up to the popular vote, and not aided by the insistence of a few powerful, humane, and educated people (i.e. the courts, Pres. Eisenhower, etc.) we might not have seen these great movements succeed. People like to be less, and not more, inclusive in their government system and in some cases can't be trusted to make the ethically corect decision. So, I will say that while our current system needs some tweaking, a "pure" democracy might not be the answer. Of course, I could be wrong. Is anyone out there able to think of a system that would preserve both democracy and to protect the society from becoming a mobocracy? -----Original Message----- From: owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU [mailto:owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On Behalf Of buckfush-AT-pseud.pseud Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004 We live in a nation that is looked at as being the purest democratic nation on earth. That is what the Republicans and Democrats want citizens to believe. We vote for president every four years and every vote is counted. This is what makes it a democracy. This propaganda may work on the naive and uninformed, but it is flat-out false. Is every vote counted? Probably (I would say 'yes' but after what happened in Florida I have my doubts). Even if we assume every vote is counted, that does not lead to the conclusion that every vote counts. Al Gore received 500,000 more votes than Dubya, so why aren't Al and Tipper dining in the White House? If every vote counts, and counts equally, what happened? Although there are 50 states in this republic, the presidential election is always determined by those 12-15 states that can go either democrat or republican. Are the Democrats ever going to carry Utah? Or course...when Armageddon is upon us!!! Is this election rigged? The answer to this question is irrelevant. Is the election process rigged? This is the question we need to ask and the answer is yes. A democrat or republican will be the president of this country as long as it remains a country. When I was younger I was always taught that I could grow up and be the President of the United States if I wanted it bad enough. What wasn't taught was the fact that I can only do that if I say I am a Republican or a Democrat. Popular politics wants us to believe that the difference between Republicans and Democrats is equal to the difference between Mars and Venus. In reality, the difference only spans from Washington D.C. to Massachusetts. >>> LOUIS-AT-pseud.pseud 9/10/2004 6:13:32 AM >>> Make sure your dumb ass teacher sends out the maling list to get your name off this class. I don't wish to reicieve these intro e mails TOBY1-AT-pseud.pseud wrote: I agree with scouter about the idea of an electoral college. I know this topic receives numerous debates every year, but more and more the media pushes us to let our voice be heard, but what good does it do if only the majority is heard? Since my teens I remember the "Rock the Vote" on MTV ads, and all the efforts made to put voting in the news and community. How can each individual voice be heard when the current system can make things so one-sided? We must find a more balanced way to do it. >From: scouter-AT-pseud.pseud >Reply-To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU >To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU >Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004 >Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:17:24 +0000 > > >I may be way off base here, but what about the idea of the electoral >college? It seems to me that at least part of the comment could be >inferred to mean that in non-swing states it dosen't matter what the >individual votes, because the vote of the majority of that state will be >what is heard. An example would be Utah; individauls within the state may >vote for John Kerry, but its a foregone conclusion that George Bush with >get the 5 electoral college votes from that state. > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > >From: bobcat-AT-pseud.pseud > >Reply-To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >To: > >Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004 > >Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:15:23 -0600 > > > >Here is my take on this, and I think that saying the election is "rigged" > >may be an inaccurate word, but certainly has the right general idea. > > > >The incumbent party in elected offices in the US always has a decided > >advantage, whether that party is Republican or Democrat. This is, in my > >opinion, because the Bush-Cheney camp has more (seemingly) "credible" >people > >in its ranks currently. Collin Powell, Carl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld, etc. >are > >high-ranking Republicans and are at no loss for chances to support Bush and > >have a LOT of people hear their views. They can throw pro-Bush blurbs in > >anywhere: in a defense debriefing, a peace summit in Cairo, or in any of a > >million other places. > > > >Besides Kerry and Edwards, most of the members of their campaign group are > >unknown to a lot of Americans. Depending on your point of view, you may > >feel that they have the right ideas, but they don't have nearly the media > >coverage that prominent Republicans have right now. The opposite was true > >after the Clinton administration, when many of the most well-known > >politicians in the country were left-wingers. > > > >So, long story short, I wouldn't say the election is rigged. What I would > >say, though, is that the election is heavily slanted towards the incumbent > >group, as it usually is. The challenge of ousting any incumbent is > >daunting: you have to use less media coverage and often less-renowned >voices > >to convince people that change is necessary. This is particularly >difficult > >in years like this one, where so much of the challenger's energy is >diverted > >away from discussing the issues because of smear tactics. > > > >This is why I think that Bush will probably win the election, whether > >(speaking from a humanitarian slant now) he should or not. People don't >get > >to hear enough of why Kerry believes his position is correct. But they get > >lots of chances to hear Bush's side of the story, which in my book has all > >the makings of a very predictable (and regrettable) election outcome. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >[mailto:owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On Behalf Of > >REDHEAD-AT-pseud.pseud > >Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:54 AM > >To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >Subject: Re: M-INTRO: Election 2004 > > > >She implied that the Bush administration was so rich > >and so powerful that regardless of the poll outcome, > >they would buy their way back into office. Im sure > >she had no material evidence to support this notion... > >it was most certainly opinion based. Also, the 2000 > >election, and the popular vote/electoral vote mismatch > >probably fed her distrust in our current political > >system. Thanks for your response. > > > >--- idasan-AT-pseud.pseud wrote: > > > > > I'm very interested in understanding more about > > > Redhead's recent post. Did > > > your professor give you any evidence that the > > > election is rigged? It seems > > > to be an outrageous claim that one (particularly an > > > acedemic) would never > > > say unless he or she had ample reasoning. Was he > > > perhaps speaking in > > > general terms about our electoral process in general > > > - or did he suggest > > > that there is something directly rigging the > > > election? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: > > > To: "Marxism Intro" > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:07 PM > > > Subject: M-INTRO: Election 2004 > > > > > > > > > > Today I was out and about on the campus of my > > > college. > > > > I was handing out voter registration forms to > > > > non-registered students and staff. At one point, > > > a > > > > professor of mine stated that I'm most certainly > > > > wasting my time, because the 2004 election is > > > "rigged" > > > > and the outcome is "locked" for the Bush to win. > > > Are > > > > my efforts to get young Americans involved, worth > > > > while?... Am I just blowing myself? Redhead > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter > > > now. > > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush > > > > > > > > > > > > --- from list > > > marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- from list > > > marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. 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