File spoon-archives/marxism-intro.archive/marxism-intro_2004/marxism-intro.0409, message 12


From: bobcat-AT-pseud.pseud
Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:27:44 -0600


These have all been excellent comments, and it raises some interesting food
for thought.  One interesting point worth making is that the 2000 election
was the fourth time that the person who carried the majority of the popular
vote didn't carry enough electoral votes to win.  The others were in 1824
(Adams), 1876 (Hayes), and 1888 (Harrison).  

Similar to this is that five other presidents who carried MORE votes than
anyone else didn't get the majority, due to a large number of third-party
votes.  These were JFK, Nixon, Clinton (twice), Wilson (twice), and Truman.

The question, of course, is what do we do to change this system?  Most of us
agree that we need a different system, but what would that be?

I'm going to play the devil's advocate and say that a "true" democracy,
where every vote counts the same as every other, may not be the best
solution.  This is because in periods of civil rights changes, such as
Abolition, Women's Suffrage, Civil Rights (1960s), and today's Gay Rights
battles, the majority of people (or at least in many geographic areas) seems
to have held a position that can be considered inhumane.  

If these humanitarian issues had been left up to the popular vote, and not
aided by the insistence of a few powerful, humane, and educated people (i.e.
the courts, Pres. Eisenhower, etc.) we might not have seen these great
movements succeed.  People like to be less, and not more, inclusive in their
government system and in some cases can't be trusted to make the ethically
corect decision.

So, I will say that while our current system needs some tweaking, a "pure"
democracy might not be the answer.  Of course, I could be wrong.  Is anyone
out there able to think of a system that would preserve both democracy and
to protect the society from becoming a mobocracy?

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
[mailto:owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On Behalf Of
buckfush-AT-pseud.pseud
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004

We live in a nation that is looked at as being the purest democratic
nation on earth.  That is what the Republicans and Democrats want
citizens to believe.  We vote for president every four years and every
vote is counted.  This is what makes it a democracy.  This propaganda
may work on the naive and uninformed, but it is flat-out false.  Is
every vote counted?  Probably (I would say 'yes' but after what happened
in Florida I have my doubts).  Even if we assume every vote is counted,
that does not lead to the conclusion that every vote counts.  Al Gore
received 500,000 more votes than Dubya, so why aren't Al and Tipper
dining in the White House?  If every vote counts, and counts equally,
what happened?  Although there are 50 states in this republic, the
presidential election is always determined by those 12-15 states that
can go either democrat or republican.  Are the Democrats ever going to
carry Utah?  Or course...when Armageddon is upon us!!!  Is this election
rigged?  The answer to this question is irrelevant.  Is the election
process rigged?  This is the question we need to ask and the answer is
yes.  A democrat or republican will be the president of this country as
long as it remains a country.  When I was younger I was always taught
that I could grow up and be the President of the United States if I
wanted it bad enough.  What wasn't taught was the fact that I can only
do that if I say I am a Republican or a Democrat.  Popular politics
wants us to believe that the difference between Republicans and
Democrats is equal to the difference between Mars and Venus.  In
reality, the difference only spans from Washington D.C. to
Massachusetts.

>>> LOUIS-AT-pseud.pseud 9/10/2004 6:13:32 AM >>>
Make sure your dumb ass teacher sends out the maling list to get your
name off this class.  I don't wish to reicieve these intro e mails

TOBY1-AT-pseud.pseud wrote: I agree with scouter about the idea of an
electoral college. I know this 
topic receives numerous debates every year, but more and more the media

pushes us to let our voice be heard, but what good does it do if only
the 
majority is heard? Since my teens I remember the "Rock the Vote" on MTV
ads, 
and all the efforts made to put voting in the news and community. How
can 
each individual voice be heard when the current system can make things
so 
one-sided? We must find a more balanced way to do it.


>From: scouter-AT-pseud.pseud 
>Reply-To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
>To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
>Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004
>Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:17:24 +0000
>
>
>I may be way off base here, but what about the idea of the electoral 
>college? It seems to me that at least part of the comment could be 
>inferred to mean that in non-swing states it dosen't matter what the 
>individual votes, because the vote of the majority of that state will
be 
>what is heard. An example would be Utah; individauls within the state
may 
>vote for John Kerry, but its a foregone conclusion that George Bush
with 
>get the 5 electoral college votes from that state.
>
>
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>
>From: bobcat-AT-pseud.pseud 
>
>Reply-To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
>
>To: 
>
>Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Election 2004
>
>Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:15:23 -0600
>
>
>
>Here is my take on this, and I think that saying the election is
"rigged"
>
>may be an inaccurate word, but certainly has the right general idea.
>
>
>
>The incumbent party in elected offices in the US always has a decided
>
>advantage, whether that party is Republican or Democrat. This is, in
my
>
>opinion, because the Bush-Cheney camp has more (seemingly) "credible"

>people
>
>in its ranks currently. Collin Powell, Carl Rove, Donald Rumsfeld,
etc. 
>are
>
>high-ranking Republicans and are at no loss for chances to support
Bush and
>
>have a LOT of people hear their views. They can throw pro-Bush blurbs
in
>
>anywhere: in a defense debriefing, a peace summit in Cairo, or in any
of a
>
>million other places.
>
>
>
>Besides Kerry and Edwards, most of the members of their campaign group
are
>
>unknown to a lot of Americans. Depending on your point of view, you
may
>
>feel that they have the right ideas, but they don't have nearly the
media
>
>coverage that prominent Republicans have right now. The opposite was
true
>
>after the Clinton administration, when many of the most well-known
>
>politicians in the country were left-wingers.
>
>
>
>So, long story short, I wouldn't say the election is rigged. What I
would
>
>say, though, is that the election is heavily slanted towards the
incumbent
>
>group, as it usually is. The challenge of ousting any incumbent is
>
>daunting: you have to use less media coverage and often less-renowned

>voices
>
>to convince people that change is necessary. This is particularly 
>difficult
>
>in years like this one, where so much of the challenger's energy is 
>diverted
>
>away from discussing the issues because of smear tactics.
>
>
>
>This is why I think that Bush will probably win the election, whether
>
>(speaking from a humanitarian slant now) he should or not. People
don't 
>get
>
>to hear enough of why Kerry believes his position is correct. But they
get
>
>lots of chances to hear Bush's side of the story, which in my book has
all
>
>the makings of a very predictable (and regrettable) election outcome.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
>
>[mailto:owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On Behalf Of
>
>REDHEAD-AT-pseud.pseud 
>
>Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 9:54 AM
>
>To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
>
>Subject: Re: M-INTRO: Election 2004
>
>
>
>She implied that the Bush administration was so rich
>
>and so powerful that regardless of the poll outcome,
>
>they would buy their way back into office. Im sure
>
>she had no material evidence to support this notion...
>
>it was most certainly opinion based. Also, the 2000
>
>election, and the popular vote/electoral vote mismatch
>
>probably fed her distrust in our current political
>
>system. Thanks for your response.
>
>
>
>--- idasan-AT-pseud.pseud wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm very interested in understanding more about
>
> > Redhead's recent post. Did
>
> > your professor give you any evidence that the
>
> > election is rigged? It seems
>
> > to be an outrageous claim that one (particularly an
>
> > acedemic) would never
>
> > say unless he or she had ample reasoning. Was he
>
> > perhaps speaking in
>
> > general terms about our electoral process in general
>
> > - or did he suggest
>
> > that there is something directly rigging the
>
> > election?
>
> >
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
>
> > From: 
>
> > To: "Marxism Intro"
>
> > 
>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:07 PM
>
> > Subject: M-INTRO: Election 2004
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > Today I was out and about on the campus of my
>
> > college.
>
> > > I was handing out voter registration forms to
>
> > > non-registered students and staff. At one point,
>
> > a
>
> > > professor of mine stated that I'm most certainly
>
> > > wasting my time, because the 2004 election is
>
> > "rigged"
>
> > > and the outcome is "locked" for the Bush to win.
>
> > Are
>
> > > my efforts to get young Americans involved, worth
>
> > > while?... Am I just blowing myself? Redhead
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > _______________________________
>
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
>
> > > Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter
>
> > now.
>
> > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush 
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > --- from list
>
> > marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- from list
>
> > marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>
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_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools
and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx 



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