From: SlickKY-AT-pseud.pseud
Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Does Capialism lead to atheism?
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 10:43:26 -0600


I think we need to be careful when making such bold statements as, religion
teaches that education is unnecessary.  This implies that the religious
population is poor, which is not true.  This also implies that the religious
people have no ambition to get an education and achieve a higher standard of
living, which is also untrue.  Are you saying that I am uneducated and
uninformed?  I know very well what is happening here in this country.  I
also know very well that I am earning an education, or else I wouldn't be
here writing to this forum.  Okay, no more personal comments.

I do agree that Capitalism dose make it more difficult to earn an education
due to the temptations to purchase commodities that are unnecessary. This is
the result of the image that is portrayed by advertisers.  This requires
more discipline from the consumer, to not purchase items that are not
necessary to life.

I am going to comment on buckfush's quote: "I agree that by keeping the
population distracted (via religion and in other manners) the capitalists
are keeping the working class subjected to them."........This implies that
it is the capitalists, meaning the rich folk, are the ones that put religion
on people, as a means of control.  I honestly don't see how this is
plausible.  I don't see President George Bush publicly promoting religion as
a necessity so that he can control us and keep us 'distracted' so that he
can make money.  The same applies to most any celebrity I can think of, or
even any wealthy business owner.  There are admittedly many wealthy
religious leaders; on the other hand, there are even more relatively not
wealthy religious leaders.   This is only valid unless there is some secret
government conspiracy that I won't even try to discuss.

On the subject of education and our presidential candidates, I do agree that
they want to perpetuate the current system.  Not because they personally
would live to benefit from it, but because that's what people want to hear.
Our capitalist ingrained society only knows one way to live in this society,
and that is to earn an education and work their brains out for the
capitalist entrepreneur until they die.  How is this tied to religion?!
Does God tell us in any form that, we must earn an education and live under
the rule of the capitalist?  This doesn't make any sense.  Or, is this the
religion of the wealthy?  Let's use religion to keep society on its knees,
and teach society a different religion so that we can control them.

A little insight please...and a little less spite against religion.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
[mailto:owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On Behalf Of
buckfush-AT-pseud.pseud
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 9:28 AM
To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Does Capialism lead to atheism?

The idea of capitalism encourages the suppressed population into
believing in something greater than itself.  It teaches that the only
way to succeed is to depend on something or someone other than oneself. 
The average citizen is not intelligent enough to make informed decisions
on his own.  He needs 'informed' men (mostly white) to guide him in the
right direction.  That is how the thinking goes.  The presidential
"debate" took place recently and I couldn't bring myself to watch it.  I
imagine that at least one of the questions dealt with education. 
Education is always used in politics...it is a catch-all phrase (like
'terrorism').  All the candidate says is 'education' and he is applauded
as a great hero.  When will a candidate give specifics as to what
exactly this so-called education consists of?  Because the education
they speak of is the education to learn to live in a capitalist
environment and to perpetuate the current flawed system.  If it was
explained in those terms the average citizen would not approve.  So this
is the paradox:  They say they want everyone to obtain an education but
then they provide no comprehensive manner to do so because by educating
the people, the people will finally rise up and stand up for themselves
and their rights.  Capitalism does indeed distract the people from
obtaining an education, by constantly bombarding the population with
pretty pictures and unneeded and useless items produced for no logical
purpose other than showing how 'important' the person is because he has
a certain item.  I agree that by keeping the population distracted (via
religion and in other manners) the capitalists are keeping the working
class subjected to them.  Why is the income distribution so skewed in
this country?  Lack of education.  "As long as you have god in your
life, you have no need of an education.  He will give you all of life's
answers".  And we fall for it!  Partly due to laziness, partly to fear. 
As long as you follow your religion's teachings then things will work
out in the end.  Education is tauted as the savior of all of life's
problems but as soon as one starts to pursue an education he is held
down by the rich and powerful.  This is why I also believe religion is
more present in capitalism than in other environments.  Keep the
population in fear.  Fear of money (or the lack thereof), fear of god. 
This is a sign of weakness by those perpetuating this fear.  Do not
think for yourself.  All you need do is believe.  Sounds nice and easy. 
No wonder it is so appealing to the uneducated and uninformed.

>>> bobcat-AT-pseud.pseud 10/2/2004 12:48:01 AM >>>
As Bertha mentioned, Marx has a very famous quote on the subject.  He
said
in the Communist Manifesto that "Religion is the opiate of the people."
 I'm
not sure if he was actually atheistic, or just agnostic, but he held a
very
sour perception of religion.  

It is strange that, though we are asking if capitalism leads to
atheism, it
seems that in the modern world the opposite is true.  The most
capitalist of
Western nations (the USA) is also by far the most religious nation in
this
group.  Socialist countries such as Canada, the UK, Germany, and France
have
a much smaller percentage of actively religious persons.  Why is this?

Education may have something to do with it.  Again, countries like
Germany
and Sweden have higher rates of college attendance than does the
United
States.  This seems to be proof that education is part of the
equation.

I think the other part has to do with exploitation and distraction.
Capitalism is an exploitative system.  In order to avoid popular
uprisings,
the people must either be violently oppressed or distracted.  Religion
provides a very convenient distraction.  Because religion tends to be
so
deeply ingrained when it is taught, problems of the world are often
pushed
aside.  Who has time to worry about wage rates and production and
social
welfare when important matters like salvation and righteousness demand
our
full attention? 

Still another possibility (arguably the most relevant in our day) is
religion's and capitalism's similar infatuation with
self-determination.  A
man who wants to succeed in religion/capitalism needs only be
devout/work
hard to succeed.  The unrighteous/poor are only that way because they
choose
to be unrighteous/poor.  This powerful similarity might be another
link
between the two.

So those are my ideas as to why capitalist societies are actually MORE
prone
to religion than socialist societies.  Thoughts?

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
[mailto:owner-marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On Behalf Of
DIGITS-AT-pseud.pseud 
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:38 PM
To: marxism-intro-AT-lists.village.Virginia.EDU 
Subject: RE: M-INTRO: Does Capialism lead to atheism?


It could work either way, because in the Capitalist society we are free
to
achieve anything we want therefore there could be an opinion that if we
are
able to do what we want, then why do we need God to help us.  On the
other
hand, if the oppression in a Capitalist society is so awful, why
wouldn't
more
people be seeking the Lord to help them out of a bad situation.  

As far as being atheist in a socialist society I think there would be
just
as
much possibility due to the fact that the government would be dictating
so
much
about what happens to the people that they could feel a need for a
higher
power.  At the same time, the same people could be so satisfied that
they
wouldn't think they needed God or salvation.  

Basically, I would say that the type of economy does not dictate
whether you
will be more or less inclined to believe a certain way.  It has more to
do
with
how ideas are exchanged in the world you live in.      




Quoting BigBertha-AT-pseud.pseud: 

> Marx, a socialist, made comments pertaining to religion. He said
something

> to the effect that those who believed in religion were immature
especially

> in early history. Therefore, I believe that he was atheist himself.
It
could
> 
> not be just Capitalism that leads to atheism.
> God teaches one to worship him and none else. If one really follows
his 
> teachings, they change their frame of mind. They may obtain many
goods in 
> their Capitalistic society, but the way they use it is different.
> It doesn't matter what kind of a society one lives in, they have the
choice 
> how they want to deal with wealth, whether they have it or not.
> In a socialist society, one could still covet; they are just limited
by 
> government.
> 
>


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