From: "Roland Chrisjohn, Ph. D." <rjohn-AT-treaty7.org>
Subject: Re: M-PSY: Freud and empowerment
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:04:40 -0400


To All:

It is obvious from this posting that Mr. Shalif has neither the patience
nor the wisdom to try to come to grips with my position.  His feeble
attempts at response to and ridicule of my position are not worth more than
the attention I provide them with here.

In the future I will remove Mr. Shalif's posts from my e-mail reader
without reading them.  Should any of the intelligent, reasonable, and
open-minded members of this list think anything in his vomit of interest to
me, I would appreciate it if they would bring it to my attention
second-hand.

Otherwise, this "discussion" is over.

R. Chrisjohn

> Hi listers.
> 
> Roland Chrisjohn, Ph. D. wrote:
> <snip>
> 
> > Ilan writes:
> >
> > "In the capitalist system, a significant percent of people, who have
> > structural problems with catechol-amines (mainly
> > Dopamine, Noradrenalin, Serotonin) get various kinds of
> > break downs as response to high stresses.
> >
> > Many variable already found responsible for the 30% of
> > genetically vulnerable people getting 'it'."
> 
> Roland:
> 
> > All these are presumptions.
> 
> Yes, like the one who state that the earth is round and the one which
claim the
> absurd that we go around the sun, and not vice versa as we all see daily.
> 
> > I do not accept the "biologism" of supposed
> > psychopathology any more than I accept its "psychologism" (or
> > "sociologism," for that matter).
> 
> These who can accept only the simple one factor theories are in big
trouble in a
> world with ALWAYS many factors active anywhere.
> 
> > Ilan writes:
> >
> > "As the socialization of the capitalist system and the alienation
> > contribute a lot to the proneness of these 30%, and make it
> > hard to overcome eruptions, we cannot do much.
> 
> > Just to expose this aspect of the nature of the  capitalist system
> 
> > and contribute as professionals some help to people who want
> > to have the best of their limited options."
> 
> Roland:
> 
> > I agree, we cannot do much; as psychologists, anyway, since it is our
role
> > to hide these aspects of dehumanization rather than expose them.  Even
much
> > of what passes as dealing with "alienation" (Richard Schacht's work is
a
> > good example) is the reduction of moral, political, social, and legal
> > problems into personal, individual, and internal ones.  This is a good
> > argument for not being psychologists (or changing what "psychology"
is),
> > not for continuing on as is.
> 
> Well, I was not the first to contribute to "alternative psychology", and
to
> refute many pro-capitalist pseudo- scientific support.
> 
> > Ilan writes:
> >
> > "The capitalist system is not a "neurosis" or "psychosis" to cure.
> > It is a class society that need a revolution to abolish."
> 
> Roland:
> 
> > In Marx's opinion, yes.
> 
> May, May, to my feeble memory he was not the firs and nor alone in this
opinion.
> 
> > Chris writes:
> >
> > "I think my first rule is to try to avoid telling my patients what to
> > do. (Probably I could be proved a hypocrite in that but I think I carry
> > it out at least to a large extent). The most important question in the
> > discharge care plan addressed to the patient is, "how can we avoid you
> > ever coming into hospital again?" by which I mean "how can *you* avoid
> > ever coming into hospital again?" and I am implying that I am prepared
to
> > make
> > it a joint project."
> >
> > Roland writes:
> >
> > "I suppose I could only answer that one could do this either by (1)
> > helping arm your client to take effective action against the system
> > that generates his/her ostensible condition or by (2) 'smoothing out'
your
> > client to live consentingly within it, the latter reflecting the
> > attitude Engles dismissed as 'the current system without the defects.'"
> >
> > Ilan writes:
> >
> > "As one who worked only few years with pre psychotic, psychotic and
> > post psychotics people, I am just amazed.
> >
> > >From the above, it seems that psychotic eruptions are due to direct
> > class struggle of indeviduals, and not for the faulty physiological
> > mechanism responding to psychological stress of plethora of sources.
> >
> > In my work with psychotic people I just enabled them to find ways to
lower
> > the
> > general pool of stress and get as fast as possible out of drug
> > treatment.
> >
> > Improving interpersonal relations was the fastest means to get fruits.
> >
> > It is not so much as 'smoothing out' as becoming wise enough to
> > circumvent stressors.
> 
> Roland:
> 
> > If you have any evidence that it "really is" "faulty physiological
> > mechanism" at work, trot it out;
> 
> Every one who read research on psychosis can find lot of information
about the
> dopaminergic aspects of the problem.
> 
> Even the research of the affective problems reveal the involvement of
dopamine
> noradrenalin and serotonin - in various configurations in the various
versions
> of depression and mania.
> 
> The reductionists try to reduce these problems to the biological systems.
Every
> one who is more than narrow minded understand that it is a combination of
many
> more factors - psycho-social ones included.
> 
> > if you have any evidence it isn't
> > oppression and domination (I won't use "class struggle," since that
> > terminology doesn't reflect the battle going on between all oppressed
and
> > dominated groups and their oppressors and dominators) at work, trot it
out.
> 
> If it was only the above, psychoactive drugs could not help people to get
out of
> it (usually only in combination of psycho-social amendments).
> 
> If it was only in the above, these problems should have been extinct in
> communist libertarian commune.
> 
> >  I am just amazed that intelligent, educated individuals can look upon
the
> > multitude of obvious economic, legal, political, social, and moral
bases
> > for what goes on in marginalized populations and retreat immediately
into
> > latent, hidden, esoteric mumbo-jumbo for "explanations."
> 
> If it was not related to biological proneness, we all have been at least
half
> crazed in the kind of alienated and repressive system.
> 
> (By the way, the occurrences of these problems in Nazi concentration
camps was
> less than usual - not more.)
> 
> > Yes, drugs can
> > get a quick reaction; so can banging people in the head with
two-by-fours.
> > As the old saying goes, "nothing is a peaceful as a dead man," but a
> > permanently drugged and self-blaming one runs a reasonable second.
> 
> The problems with psychoactive drugs are mainly two:first, to really help
> people, the psychiatrist need to know much more than the usual one do and
devote
> much more time to manage the treatment.
> 
> The usual treatment is not much more than chemical handcuffs.
> 
> Second, as the eruption is most often a response to life stresses, the
lack of
> serious efforts and will to do what need to be done to get the person out
of it,
> render most of the treatments to become mal-treatment.
> 
> > Roland writes:
> >
> > "Of course I have no way of knowing what you do, and this isn't
intended
> > as a slight.  It's meant to point out, as I do in the chapter I've
offered
> > to
> > send you, that much psychological work seems more concerned
> > with teaching clients how to survive longer in a concentration camp
> > than to destroy the camp itself."
> >
> > Ilan writes:
> >
> > "When in concentration camp, I will not incite these with open wounds
> > to be the first wave of revolutionary attack. When I work with
> > individuals who apply to my services, I do my best to serve them. I do
> > not try to brain wash them to be revolutionaries."
> 
> > Roland:
> > You are blatantly ascribing to me a position I have never held or
> > advocated.  If you wish to know what my position is, ask me and I will
tell
> > you.  Do not make up your own version of my position and then attack
it.
> 
> Well, I may have failed to understand the accurate meaning of the text.
> 
> > Ilan writes:
> >
> > "By their demonstration that people who drop out some of their
> > psychological chains can be happy in this world, I serve both my
> > applicant and revolution.
> 
> > I for sure agree that most professional do their jobs with less then
> > communist libertarian way of thinking, but, it is the way nearly all
> > people do their job in the capitalist system."
> 
> Roland:
> 
> > This is more of the same.  I am not a communist, nor a Marxist, nor a
> > libertarian, nor any of the pigeon-holes you seen intent upon forcing
me
> > into.
> 
> Labels are not pigeon-holes - they are like other words an aid in
communication
> to those who use them properly.
> 
> > If there is overlap with my own think with that of Marx or
> > Wittgenstein, I prefer to think it is because they were rather
primitive
> > Haudenausaunee rather than that I am a primitive Marxist or
> > Wittgensteinian.
> 
> Some time entirely bright people arrive to the same right (or erroneous)
> conclusions their own way.
> 
> --
> Ilan Shalif (Psychological Ph.D. & Alternative Psychologist)
> 
> http://members.tripod.com/~alternativ_psy/
> http://www.geocities.com/~drilanshalif/
> http://flag.blackened.net/ishalif/anarchy.html
> http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/3150/Anarchy.html
> http://www.geocities.com/~drilanshalif/content1.htm Tel-Aviv 61132 ISRAEL
> (Occupied Palestain)
> download site
> http://www.etext.org/Psychology/Shalif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>      --- from list marxism-psych-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---


     --- from list marxism-psych-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---