Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:56:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: m-18043-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se (Stuart Sheild) Subject: M-TH: Re: marxism-thaxis-digest V1 #216 > >marxism-thaxis-digest Saturday, August 16 1997 Volume 01 : Number 216 > > > >In this issue: >=============> > Louis Proyect M-TH: Living Marxism > "Karl Carlile" Re: M-TH: Living Marxism > Louis N Proyect Re: M-TH: Living Marxism > Yoshie Furuhashi M-TH: More on NYPD Sexual Assault and Beating of a > Rob Schaap Re: M-TH: Living Marxism > Hugh Rodwell M-TH: Re: Immigration > Hugh Rodwell M-TH: Democratic and transitional demands > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:36:46 -0400 >From: Louis Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu> >Subject: M-TH: Living Marxism > >>Affirmative action doesn't require you to keep even one non-white >>friend or comrade (of course someone may one day raise a stink that the >>editorial pages of *Living Marxism* are unstained by a single regular >>non-white contributor) . > >>Rakesh >> > >Oh, Living Marxism. Now I see. I remember now that Adam Rose the SWPer from >England used to rail against this outfit. So I just took a look at their >Web Page and got a sample of their ideology. It's pretty hair-raising >stuff, as indicated by the following tidbit: > >"For Greenpeace and other campaigners, the Chernobyl accident provides a >powerful focus for a condemnation of nuclear power. They argue that failure >to close down the >nuclear industry will soon mean that 'radiation-linked disease becomes an >accepted part of life'. The popular consensus is that nuclear radiation has >many and unforeseeable long-term effects, which set it apart from other >industries and forms of energy production as uniquely dangerous. > >Chernobyl was a terrible accident, and many people will continue to die as >a consequence (see below for a summary of what happened). But many of the >reactions to it lack all sense of proportion. Nuclear power attracts >criticism and fear like flowers attract bees. Chernobyl has become a >metaphor for destruction and poisoning in our ecologically minded and >risk-conscious age. And as so often with concerns about the destructive >consequences of human action, the perceived risks far outstrip the real ones." > >This is really bonkers. Rolf Martens-type bonkers. > >So James Heartfield is a regular contributor to LM. I was trying to figure >out why his posts, while elegantly written, have so many wrong notes. I now >appreciate why. > >I personally won't put much energy into trying to change his mind about one >or another shibboleth that he writes about from now on, like immigration or >affirmative action. One of the things I've learned about sect-cult >formations like LM is that trying to change the mind of a member is like >talking to a brick wall. I leave that dubious pleasure to others. > >Louis P. > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:14:24 -0700 >From: "Karl Carlile" <expresspost-AT-tinet.ie> >Subject: Re: M-TH: Living Marxism > >KARL: Hi comrades! > >LOUIS PROYECT: So James Heartfield is a regular contributor to LM. I >was trying to figure >out why his posts, while elegantly written, have so many wrong notes. I >now >appreciate why. > >I personally won't put much energy into trying to change his mind about >one >or another shibboleth that he writes about from now on, like >immigration or >affirmative action. One of the things I've learned about sect-cult >formations like LM is that trying to change the mind of a member is >like >talking to a brick wall. I leave that dubious pleasure to others. > >KARL: I want to make it perfectly clear that my criticisms of James >Heartfield's posting on immigration has absolutely nothing ot do with >the kind of narrow minded illogical prejudice quoted above. My >criticisms are made in the context of seeking to win over people like >James to revolutionary politics. I know he would beg to differ here. > >I havefound much of James postings interesting and of a relatively high >quality. I will have no part in any attempt by Proyect and his >"freinds" to engage in a joint attempt to force James off this list. It >may not be insignificant that Proyect's mail was delivered not long >after my critcal posting. As usual Proyect is attempting to prevent >debat from developing. As I said before anytime there is the chance of >debate developing Proyect steps in with a flame baiting barrage as part >of his strategy of degrading debate on the list. One might be forgiven >for questioning the motives underlying this strategy. Perhaps its >inanity or perhaps it is something else. I am sure some will understand >what I mean. > >These lists can develop into a high quality list if people like James >Heartfield continue to contribute. > > >Greetings Karl > > > > >message > > > > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:15:55 -0400 (EDT) >From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu> >Subject: Re: M-TH: Living Marxism > >On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Karl Carlile wrote: > >> >> These lists can develop into a high quality list if people like James >> Heartfield continue to contribute. >> > >Karl, I invite you and James to continue your discussion without me. I was >under the impression that James was like the rest of us, trying to figure >out the world on his own. I didn't realize that he already had everything >all figured out and that it was contained in the pages of Living Marxism. >I invite other list members to check their web page out. It is, as I said, >an eyeful. I just don't think there's much point in me having a discussion >with somebody trying to put a positive spin on nuclear energy. But, hey, >that's just me. > >Louis P. > > >ps. Is David Yaffe your Zavarzadeh? > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:55:16 -0500 >From: Yoshie Furuhashi <Furuhashi.1-AT-osu.edu> >Subject: M-TH: More on NYPD Sexual Assault and Beating of a Haitian Man > >FORWARDED ARTICLE >===================> >[Philadelphia Online] THE PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS > >Thursday, August 14,1997 > > > New York cop charged with beating of Haitian > > by Tom Hays > >Associated Press >NEW YORK -- A police officer surrendered last night to face charges of >taking a Haitian immigrant arrested in a nightclub fight into a >station-house bathroom and sexually brutalizing him with a toilet plunger. > >``They said, `Take this, n-----,' '' 30-year-old Abner Louima said in an >interview from the hospital, where he was in critical condition after >surgery to repair a puncture in his small intestine and an injury to his >bladder. > >Justin Volpe, 25, turned himself into Internal Affairs just before 10 p.m., >said Olga Mercado, a police spokeswoman. > >Deputy Inspector Michael Collins said Volpe would be charged with >aggravated sexual abuse and first-degree assault. Collins also said charges >against Louima relating to the nightclub fight were being dropped. > >Another officer involved in the case, identified by a police source as >Thomas Bruder, 31, was assigned to desk duty. Collins said only Volpe faced >charges Wednesday night. > >The investigation into Louima's arrest early Saturday intensified after >doctors confirmed the injuries appeared to have been caused by a blunt >instrument. > >Louima identified Volpe and Bruder as the arresting officers from >photographs shown to him in his Coney Island Hospital bed. He claimed as >many as four officers were involved. > >Louima's attorney, Brian Figeroux, said his client told him the officers >invoked Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's name as they beat him. > >``We're going to teach you n-----s to respect police officers. [ Former >Mayor David ] Dinkins is no longer in power. It's Giuliani time,'' Figeroux >quoted Louima as saying. > >Earlier yesterday Giuliani called the attack ``reprehensible, done by >anyone at anytime.'' > >``Allegedly done by police officers, it's even more reprehensible,'' he >said. > >Before it was announced that charges against Louima were being dropped, he >was handcuffed to his hospital bed and denied visitors -- drawing protests >from his lawyers, family and civil right activists. > >The Rev. Al Sharpton, who is running for mayor, stood outside and demanded >that charges against Louima be dropped and the officers arrested. ``Nothing >can justify the torture of a human being,'' he said. > >Louima was one of two men who police said interfered with officers trying >to break up a fight between two women outside a nightclub called Club >Rendez-vous. Both were arrested on charges of assault, resisting arrest, >disorderly conduct and obstructing justice. > >- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >FORWARDED MESSAGE >===================> >>Return-Path: <ngozi-AT-Cookie.secapl.com> >>Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:42:23 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Kamaria Ngozi <ngozi-AT-Cookie.secapl.com> >>To: Marpessa Kupendua <nattyreb-AT-ix.netcom.com> >>Subject: NYPD Attack (fwd) >> >> >>August 14, 1997 >> >> >> Calls to Haitian Radio Station Reflect Outrage >> >> >> Related Articles >> Officer Charged in Torture in Brooklyn Station House >> Differing View of an Officer Accused of Assault >> Man Says Officers Tortured Him After Arrest (Aug. 13) >> >> >> By JONATHAN P. HICKS >> >> NEW YORK -- On a typical morning, Radio Soleil D'Haiti, a >>Haitian cable radio station that broadcasts from a storefront in Brooklyn, >>>offers light entertainment, usually the undulating rhythms of peppery >>Compass >music. But Wednesday, things were far from normal. >> >> The station opened its phone lines for what became hours of bitter >>calls about a Haitian man who, his lawyer says, was beaten and sodomized >>while >in police custody. >> >> "The reaction is huge," said station manager Ricot Dupuy, who >>added >that the station reaches about 400,000 households in New York, New >>Jersey and >Connecticut. >> >> "The station has been flooded with calls all day," he said. "And >>all >the callers are outraged. Most people are saying that this is not >>some isolated >incident involving one or two bad cops. They are saying >>that they feel it's the >entire New York City Police Department." >> >> Similar sentiments echoed up and down Nostrand Avenue, where the >>studio operates. The area in Brooklyn's Flatbush section is home to a >>cluster >of businesses owned by Haitian-Americans. It is here that many >>Haitian New >Yorkers come for haircuts, airline tickets, cuisine or just >>conversation. >> >> Wednesday, the reported attack on the 33-year-old immigrant, Abner >>Louima, was topic No. 1. >> >> "You've got Timothy McVeigh, who blew up the federal building in >>Oklahoma and killed all those people," said Frantz Milfort, sitting in a >>barber >shop down the block from Radio Soleil. "But did the police do this >>kind of >thing to McVeigh? Of course not." >> >> Across the street, Jean Tropnasse, a travel agency manager, shook >>his fist. "Just the thought of something like this happening to someone, >>it's >outrageous," he said. "This has left me stuttering and upset." >> >> Tropnasse said he was eager to join a protest march against the >>Police Department. "I'm sure there will be one," he said. "There has to be >>one. >We need a protest now, and it has got to be bigger than anything we >>have done >before." >> >> Marie Des Mangles, who runs a bakery with her husband, said that >>the community had to react. "This is too much," she said. "It's just too >>>unbelievable. Something has to be done." >> >> Also Wednesday, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and Police Commissioner >>Howard Safir, clearly sensing the community's anger, held a meeting with >>the >heads of the Haitian community, civic organizations, clergy and >>elected >officials. The mayor said that arrests would be made and that >>punishment would >>be swift. >> >> But not all participants were satisfied. >> >> "Some of us have been complaining about this mentality of the >>Police Department, that they are an invading army," said Patrick L. >>Synmioe, a >lawyer with the Caribbean American Legal Defense Fund, . >> >> "This was a little like putting up a stop light or a school guard >>at a dangerous intersection, but after the school child has already been >>>killed." > > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:11:21 +1000 >From: Rob Schaap <rws-AT-comserver.canberra.edu.au> >Subject: Re: M-TH: Living Marxism > >G'day Louis, > >While I acknowledge a few eccentricities (and the odd breathtaking >nonsense) in LM, I never discerned in it a particularly sectarian flavour. >There are good popular leftist interpretations and theoretical explications >to be had there too. I'm not sure James's involvement with LM says as much >about him as you appear to be hearing. > >Of course, your own response to James is your business - but I suspect >you've made yet another rod for your own (and this list's) scarred back. >If I'm any judge, creative over-reaction to your (recreationally?) >provocative diagnosis of James's politics is on its way. > >That said, it's hard to see tens of thousands of lives ruined by radiation, >and the ultimate inevitability of more of the same, as the sort of thing >where 'the perceived risks far outstrip the real ones.' > >Yeah; 'really bonkers' seems about right ... > >Cheers, >Rob. > > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:18:35 +0200 >From: Hugh Rodwell <m-14970-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se> >Subject: M-TH: Re: Immigration > >Rob S writes: > >>G'day Hugh, >> >>If one were to acknowledge that (a) the logically inevitable privations of >>late capitalism are more objectively manifest than ever and (b) we are >>still far from subjective conditions such that we may speak of a >>revolutionary period, would one be a socialist by your definition? > >Socialist? Why not. Some people call Blair a socialist. I use Marx's >definition of socialist in his Critique of the Gotha Programme when I talk >about modes of production, and this is basically what I go by generally, ie >I'd probably say that Blair's not really a socialist at all because he >doesn't accept this definition or work for it as a goal. > >The two points Rob mentions -- one, that late capitalism causes manifest >and inevitable misery on an ever-growing scale, and two, that a >revolutionary period requires certain subjective conditions to be fulfilled >- -- are both relevant but utterly separate. I think it's quite likely that >people holding one are socialists. Those holding two don't have to be >socialists at all, they could just be academic sociologists or historians. >The outcome of a revolutionary period might be determined by the subjective >consciousness of mass leaderships and the masses themselves, but the period >as such could be revolutionary with a huge variety of subjective attitudes >in the masses. I would always qualify "revolutionary period" with something >more definite relating to the character of mass consciousness and the >leadership or leaderships and their consciousness. > >Rob goes on: > >>As you >>no doubt realise, I happen to think this. > >OK, he wants to consider himself a socialist. So does Blair (perhaps, for >electoral reasons...). Look at all the bourgeois parties in Latin America >that call themselves revolutionary and popular! The name isn't the >important thing. Programmatic definitions such as Rob gives above are a >much better approach. > >>And I happen to think today's >>pain has to be alleviated/attenuated/made tolerable in ways that are >>conceivable today - in today's way of being. > >As Marx said, society only sets itself problems it can solve. Since >problems are rarely solved all at once on a world scale instantly, some >solutions take place in slow motion and dispersed around the globe. > > >>One who focuses solely on the ultimate moment, and sees piecemeal responses >>to current problems in current lives as distortions or distractions in/from >>correct practice has lost sight of what matters: real people. I don't >>accuse you of this, for if I did, I think I'd be making a mistake of the >>same order as you make when you write: >> >>>I don't think Chris is after real solutions. >> >>Sincerely comradely, >>Rob. >> >> >> >> >> --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > > > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:18:45 +0200 >From: Hugh Rodwell <m-14970-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se> >Subject: M-TH: Democratic and transitional demands > >Jerry L wrote: > >> I also believe that the problem (which will persist >>so long as there as international inequality, borders, and nation-states) >>will not be solved by "tinkering with the system." This, however, does not >>mean that we -- in specific circumstances where the class interests of >>the working-class will benefit in the short-run and medium-run -- should >>not support "tinkering". As I recall, an assassinated revolutionary who you >>identify with politically stressed the importance of raising *both* >>democratic and transitional demands. Would he not charge those who just >>raise democratic demands with workerism and/or reformism and those who >>just raise transitional demands with ultraleftism? I think I know your >>transitional demands, but what are your democratic demands re >>immigration, Hugh? >> >>BTW, the "real solution" to immigration requires the abolition of >>international inequality and nation-states, and that is a solution which >>can only be attained in the context of global *communism*. Thus, the "real >>solution" will not be achieved under capitalism *or* socialism. > >On the second paragraph first. Under capitalism the problem will tend to >get worse. Under socialism (ie a federation of workers' states) there will >be first be a stage while imperialism is still strongest on the world scale >when the solution will be on its way, but under pressure from reactionary >forces. When socialism becomes stronger than imperialism on the world >scale, the real solution will gain ground hand over fist. If Jerry had >written "the real solution will not be fully realized until communism is >realized" then there would have been less ambiguity about the process. > >The first paragraph is interesting, because it makes a clear distinction >between democratic and transitional demands. This kind of distinction is >akin to that between minimum and maximum programmes, a tried and true >Stalinist tradition. But it is completely alien to Trotsky's view of >things, to the Transitional Programme's method and to orthodox Trotskyism. > >The whole point of transitional demands is that they are grounded in >immediately felt needs, such as democratic needs usually are, but they are >presented by revolutionaries in full awareness of the fact that a real >solution to them, their real satisfaction, will not be achievable within >the capitalist setup. In their discussions and cooperation with others >working for the solution of the democratic problem, revolutionaries will be >busy pointing out the necessity of more than just "tinkering" to realize >the desired solution. Those in the struggle who see the justice of this >position (ie the inadequacy of even the best "tinkering" reforms forced on >a reluctant bourgeoisie by militant pressure from workers and popular >masses) will in the best case become enthusiastic supporters of the need to >work for a revolutionary transformation of society and see the relevance of >other struggles beyond the immediate democratic issue that got them started >to broader issues of social justice and stable prosperity for everybody. So >mobilization around democratic issues (such as national oppression, women's >rights, health, welfare, education, freedom of speech and access to media >and official documents, etc) in a transitional framework is very far from >being an ultra-left process. It's a method that starts with the >consciousness of the masses as it is, and raises the level of both >awareness and organization as it develops. > >To work satisfactorily the transitional method needs an authoritative (not >authoritarian) leadership and a strong revolutionary cadre rooted in >important sectors of the working class. This is the point of trying to >build a revolutionary, international Marxist party. This is also the whole >basis of the struggle to reconstruct the Fourth International, as such a >party is needed to realize the programmatic goals of revolutionary Marxism. >The difficulties in building a revolutionary Bolshevik-Leninist >international demonstrate the terrible handicap the lack of an >revolutionary leadership creates. Trotsky wasn't exaggerating when his very >first sentence in the Transitional Programme indicated that the crisis >facing humanity could only be surmounted by solving the crisis in >proletarian leadership: > > The world political situation as a whole is chiefly characterized >by a > historical crisis of the leadership of the proletariat. > >Cheers, > >Hugh > > > > > --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- > >------------------------------ > >End of marxism-thaxis-digest V1 #216 >************************************ > > > Stuart --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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