File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1997/marxism-thaxis.9708, message 188


Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:56:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: m-18043-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se (Stuart Sheild)
Subject: M-TH: Re: marxism-thaxis-digest V1 #216


>
>marxism-thaxis-digest    Saturday, August 16 1997    Volume 01 : Number 216
>
>
>
>In this issue:
>=============>
>  Louis Proyect          M-TH: Living Marxism                              
>  "Karl Carlile"         Re: M-TH: Living Marxism                          
>  Louis N Proyect        Re: M-TH: Living Marxism                          
>  Yoshie Furuhashi       M-TH: More on NYPD Sexual Assault and Beating of a
>  Rob Schaap             Re: M-TH: Living Marxism                          
>  Hugh Rodwell           M-TH: Re: Immigration                             
>  Hugh Rodwell           M-TH: Democratic and transitional demands         
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:36:46 -0400
>From: Louis Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu>
>Subject: M-TH: Living Marxism
>
>>Affirmative action doesn't require you to keep even one non-white
>>friend or comrade (of course someone may one day raise a stink that the
>>editorial pages of *Living Marxism* are unstained by a single regular
>>non-white contributor) .
>
>>Rakesh
>>
>
>Oh, Living Marxism. Now I see. I remember now that Adam Rose the SWPer from
>England used to rail against this outfit. So I just took a look at their
>Web Page and got a sample of their ideology. It's pretty hair-raising
>stuff, as indicated by the following tidbit:
>
>"For Greenpeace and other campaigners, the Chernobyl accident provides a
>powerful focus for a condemnation of nuclear power. They argue that failure
>to close down the
>nuclear industry will soon mean that 'radiation-linked disease becomes an
>accepted part of life'. The popular consensus is that nuclear radiation has
>many and unforeseeable long-term effects, which set it apart from other
>industries and forms of energy production as uniquely dangerous. 
>
>Chernobyl was a terrible accident, and many people will continue to die as
>a consequence (see below for a summary of what happened). But many of the
>reactions to it lack all sense of proportion. Nuclear power attracts
>criticism and fear like flowers attract bees. Chernobyl has become a
>metaphor for destruction and poisoning in our ecologically minded and
>risk-conscious age. And as so often with concerns about the destructive
>consequences of human action, the perceived risks far outstrip the real ones."
>
>This is really bonkers. Rolf Martens-type bonkers.
>
>So James Heartfield is a regular contributor to LM. I was trying to figure
>out why his posts, while elegantly written, have so many wrong notes. I now
>appreciate why.
>
>I personally won't put much energy into trying to change his mind about one
>or another shibboleth that he writes about from now on, like immigration or
>affirmative action. One of the things I've learned about sect-cult
>formations like LM is that trying to change the mind of a member is like
>talking to a brick wall. I leave that dubious pleasure to others.
>
>Louis P.
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:14:24 -0700
>From: "Karl Carlile" <expresspost-AT-tinet.ie>
>Subject: Re: M-TH: Living Marxism
>
>KARL: Hi comrades!
>
>LOUIS PROYECT: So James Heartfield is a regular contributor to LM. I
>was trying to figure
>out why his posts, while elegantly written, have so many wrong notes. I
>now
>appreciate why.
>
>I personally won't put much energy into trying to change his mind about
>one
>or another shibboleth that he writes about from now on, like
>immigration or
>affirmative action. One of the things I've learned about sect-cult
>formations like LM is that trying to change the mind of a member is
>like
>talking to a brick wall. I leave that dubious pleasure to others.
>
>KARL: I want to make it perfectly clear that my criticisms of James
>Heartfield's posting on immigration has absolutely nothing ot do with
>the kind of narrow minded illogical prejudice quoted above. My
>criticisms are made in the context of seeking to win over people like
>James to revolutionary politics. I know he would beg to differ here.
>
>I havefound much of James postings interesting and of a relatively high
>quality. I will have no part in any attempt by Proyect and his
>"freinds" to engage in a joint attempt to force James off this list. It
>may not be insignificant that Proyect's mail was delivered not long
>after my critcal posting. As usual Proyect is attempting to prevent
>debat from developing. As I said before anytime there is the chance of
>debate developing Proyect steps in with a flame baiting barrage as part
>of his strategy of degrading debate on the list. One might be forgiven
>for questioning the motives underlying this strategy. Perhaps its
>inanity or perhaps it is something else. I am sure some will understand
>what I mean.
>
>These lists can develop into a high quality list if people like James
>Heartfield continue to contribute.  
>
>
>Greetings Karl
>
>
>
>
>message 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:15:55 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3-AT-columbia.edu>
>Subject: Re: M-TH: Living Marxism
>
>On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Karl Carlile wrote:
>
>> 
>> These lists can develop into a high quality list if people like James
>> Heartfield continue to contribute.  
>> 
>
>Karl, I invite you and James to continue your discussion without me. I was
>under the impression that James was like the rest of us, trying to figure
>out the world on his own. I didn't realize that he already had everything
>all figured out and that it was contained in the pages of Living Marxism.
>I invite other list members to check their web page out. It is, as I said,
>an eyeful. I just don't think there's much point in me having a discussion
>with somebody trying to put a positive spin on nuclear energy. But, hey,
>that's just me.
>
>Louis P.
>
>
>ps. Is David Yaffe your Zavarzadeh?
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:55:16 -0500
>From: Yoshie Furuhashi <Furuhashi.1-AT-osu.edu>
>Subject: M-TH: More on NYPD Sexual Assault and Beating of a Haitian Man
>
>FORWARDED ARTICLE
>===================>
>[Philadelphia Online] THE PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS
>
>Thursday, August 14,1997
>
>
>               New York cop charged with beating of Haitian
>
>                                by Tom Hays
>
>Associated Press
>NEW YORK -- A police officer surrendered last night to face charges of
>taking a Haitian immigrant arrested in a nightclub fight into a
>station-house bathroom and sexually brutalizing him with a toilet plunger.
>
>``They said, `Take this, n-----,' '' 30-year-old Abner Louima said in an
>interview from the hospital, where he was in critical condition after
>surgery to repair a puncture in his small intestine and an injury to his
>bladder.
>
>Justin Volpe, 25, turned himself into Internal Affairs just before 10 p.m.,
>said Olga Mercado, a police spokeswoman.
>
>Deputy Inspector Michael Collins said Volpe would be charged with
>aggravated sexual abuse and first-degree assault. Collins also said charges
>against Louima relating to the nightclub fight were being dropped.
>
>Another officer involved in the case, identified by a police source as
>Thomas Bruder, 31, was assigned to desk duty. Collins said only Volpe faced
>charges Wednesday night.
>
>The investigation into Louima's arrest early Saturday intensified after
>doctors confirmed the injuries appeared to have been caused by a blunt
>instrument.
>
>Louima identified Volpe and Bruder as the arresting officers from
>photographs shown to him in his Coney Island Hospital bed. He claimed as
>many as four officers were involved.
>
>Louima's attorney, Brian Figeroux, said his client told him the officers
>invoked Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's name as they beat him.
>
>``We're going to teach you n-----s to respect police officers. [ Former
>Mayor David ] Dinkins is no longer in power. It's Giuliani time,'' Figeroux
>quoted Louima as saying.
>
>Earlier yesterday Giuliani called the attack ``reprehensible, done by
>anyone at anytime.''
>
>``Allegedly done by police officers, it's even more reprehensible,'' he
>said.
>
>Before it was announced that charges against Louima were being dropped, he
>was handcuffed to his hospital bed and denied visitors -- drawing protests
>from his lawyers, family and civil right activists.
>
>The Rev. Al Sharpton, who is running for mayor, stood outside and demanded
>that charges against Louima be dropped and the officers arrested. ``Nothing
>can justify the torture of a human being,'' he said.
>
>Louima was one of two men who police said interfered with officers trying
>to break up a fight between two women outside a nightclub called Club
>Rendez-vous. Both were arrested on charges of assault, resisting arrest,
>disorderly conduct and obstructing justice.
>
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>FORWARDED MESSAGE
>===================>
>>Return-Path: <ngozi-AT-Cookie.secapl.com>
>>Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:42:23 -0500 (CDT)
>>From: Kamaria Ngozi <ngozi-AT-Cookie.secapl.com>
>>To: Marpessa Kupendua <nattyreb-AT-ix.netcom.com>
>>Subject: NYPD Attack (fwd)
>>
>>
>>August 14, 1997
>>
>>
>>          Calls to Haitian Radio Station Reflect Outrage
>>
>>
>>          Related Articles
>>          Officer Charged in Torture in Brooklyn Station House
>>          Differing View of an Officer Accused of Assault
>>          Man Says Officers Tortured Him After Arrest (Aug. 13)
>>
>>
>>          By JONATHAN P. HICKS
>>
>>               NEW YORK -- On a typical morning, Radio Soleil D'Haiti, a
>>Haitian cable radio station that broadcasts from a storefront in Brooklyn,
>>>offers light entertainment, usually the undulating rhythms of peppery
>>Compass >music. But Wednesday, things were far from normal.
>>
>>          The station opened its phone lines for what became hours of bitter
>>calls about a Haitian man who, his lawyer says, was beaten and sodomized
>>while >in police custody.
>>
>>          "The reaction is huge," said station manager Ricot Dupuy, who
>>added >that the station reaches about 400,000 households in New York, New
>>Jersey and >Connecticut.
>>
>>          "The station has been flooded with calls all day," he said. "And
>>all >the callers are outraged. Most people are saying that this is not
>>some isolated >incident involving one or two bad cops. They are saying
>>that they feel it's the >entire New York City Police Department."
>>
>>          Similar sentiments echoed up and down Nostrand Avenue, where the
>>studio operates. The area in Brooklyn's Flatbush section is home to a
>>cluster >of businesses owned by Haitian-Americans. It is here that many
>>Haitian New >Yorkers come for haircuts, airline tickets, cuisine or just
>>conversation.
>>
>>          Wednesday, the reported attack on the 33-year-old immigrant, Abner
>>Louima, was topic No. 1.
>>
>>          "You've got Timothy McVeigh, who blew up the federal building in
>>Oklahoma and killed all those people," said Frantz Milfort, sitting in a
>>barber >shop down the block from Radio Soleil. "But did the police do this
>>kind of >thing to McVeigh? Of course not."
>>
>>          Across the street, Jean Tropnasse, a travel agency manager, shook
>>his fist. "Just the thought of something like this happening to someone,
>>it's >outrageous," he said. "This has left me stuttering and upset."
>>
>>          Tropnasse said he was eager to join a protest march against the
>>Police Department. "I'm sure there will be one," he said. "There has to be
>>one. >We need a protest now, and it has got to be bigger than anything we
>>have done >before."
>>
>>          Marie Des Mangles, who runs a bakery with her husband, said that
>>the community had to react. "This is too much," she said. "It's just too
>>>unbelievable. Something has to be done."
>>
>>          Also Wednesday, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani and Police Commissioner
>>Howard Safir, clearly sensing the community's anger, held a meeting with
>>the >heads of the Haitian community, civic organizations, clergy and
>>elected >officials. The mayor said that arrests would be made and that
>>punishment would
>>be swift.
>>
>>          But not all participants were satisfied.
>>
>>          "Some of us have been complaining about this mentality of the
>>Police Department, that they are an invading army," said Patrick L.
>>Synmioe, a >lawyer with the Caribbean American Legal Defense Fund, .
>>
>>          "This was a little like putting up a stop light or a school guard
>>at a dangerous intersection, but after the school child has already been
>>>killed."
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:11:21 +1000
>From: Rob Schaap <rws-AT-comserver.canberra.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: M-TH: Living Marxism
>
>G'day Louis,
>
>While I acknowledge a few eccentricities (and the odd breathtaking
>nonsense) in LM, I never discerned in it a particularly sectarian flavour.
>There are good popular leftist interpretations and theoretical explications
>to be had there too.  I'm not sure James's involvement with LM says as much
>about him as you appear to be hearing.
>
>Of course, your own response to James is your business - but I suspect
>you've made yet another rod for your own (and this list's) scarred back.
>If I'm any judge, creative over-reaction to your (recreationally?)
>provocative diagnosis of James's politics is on its way.
>
>That said, it's hard to see tens of thousands of lives ruined by radiation,
>and the ultimate inevitability of more of the same, as the sort of thing
>where 'the perceived risks far outstrip the real ones.'
>
>Yeah; 'really bonkers' seems about right ...
>
>Cheers,
>Rob.
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:18:35 +0200
>From: Hugh Rodwell <m-14970-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se>
>Subject: M-TH: Re: Immigration
>
>Rob S writes:
>
>>G'day Hugh,
>>
>>If one were to acknowledge that (a) the logically inevitable privations of
>>late capitalism are more objectively manifest than ever and (b) we are
>>still far from subjective conditions such that we may speak of a
>>revolutionary period, would one be a socialist by your definition?
>
>Socialist? Why not. Some people call Blair a socialist. I use Marx's
>definition of socialist in his Critique of the Gotha Programme when I talk
>about modes of production, and this is basically what I go by generally, ie
>I'd probably say that Blair's not really a socialist at all because he
>doesn't accept this definition or work for it as a goal.
>
>The two points Rob mentions -- one, that late capitalism causes manifest
>and inevitable misery on an ever-growing scale, and two, that a
>revolutionary period requires certain subjective conditions to be fulfilled
>- -- are both relevant but utterly separate. I think it's quite likely that
>people holding one are socialists. Those holding two don't have to be
>socialists at all, they could just be academic sociologists or historians.
>The outcome of a revolutionary period might be determined by the subjective
>consciousness of mass leaderships and the masses themselves, but the period
>as such could be revolutionary with a huge variety of subjective attitudes
>in the masses. I would always qualify "revolutionary period" with something
>more definite relating to the character of mass consciousness and the
>leadership or leaderships and their consciousness.
>
>Rob goes on:
>
>>As you
>>no doubt realise, I happen to think this.
>
>OK, he wants to consider himself a socialist. So does Blair (perhaps, for
>electoral reasons...). Look at all the bourgeois parties in Latin America
>that call themselves revolutionary and popular! The name isn't the
>important thing. Programmatic definitions such as Rob gives above are a
>much better approach.
>
>>And I happen to think today's
>>pain has to be alleviated/attenuated/made tolerable in ways that are
>>conceivable today - in today's way of being.
>
>As Marx said, society only sets itself problems it can solve. Since
>problems are rarely solved all at once on a world scale instantly,  some
>solutions take place in slow motion and dispersed around the globe.
>
>
>>One who focuses solely on the ultimate moment, and sees piecemeal responses
>>to current problems in current lives as distortions or distractions in/from
>>correct practice has lost sight of what matters: real people.  I don't
>>accuse you of this, for if I did, I think I'd be making a mistake of the
>>same order as you make when you write:
>>
>>>I don't think Chris is after real solutions.
>>
>>Sincerely comradely,
>>Rob.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:18:45 +0200
>From: Hugh Rodwell <m-14970-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se>
>Subject: M-TH: Democratic and transitional demands
>
>Jerry L wrote:
>
>> I also believe that the problem (which will persist
>>so long as there as international inequality, borders, and nation-states)
>>will not be solved by "tinkering with the system." This, however, does not
>>mean that we -- in specific circumstances where the class interests of
>>the working-class will benefit in the short-run and medium-run -- should
>>not support "tinkering". As I recall, an assassinated revolutionary who you
>>identify with politically stressed the importance of raising *both*
>>democratic and transitional demands. Would he not charge those who just
>>raise democratic demands with workerism and/or reformism and those who
>>just raise transitional demands with ultraleftism?  I think I know your
>>transitional demands, but what are your democratic demands re
>>immigration, Hugh?
>>
>>BTW, the "real solution" to immigration requires the abolition of
>>international inequality and nation-states, and that is a solution which
>>can only be attained in the context of global *communism*. Thus, the "real
>>solution" will not be achieved under capitalism *or* socialism.
>
>On the second paragraph first. Under capitalism the problem will tend to
>get worse. Under socialism (ie a federation of workers' states) there will
>be first be a stage while imperialism is still strongest on the world scale
>when the solution will be on its way, but under pressure from reactionary
>forces. When socialism becomes stronger than imperialism on the world
>scale, the real solution will gain ground hand over fist. If Jerry had
>written "the real solution will not be fully realized until communism is
>realized" then there would have been less ambiguity about the process.
>
>The first paragraph is interesting, because it makes a clear distinction
>between democratic and transitional demands. This kind of distinction is
>akin to that between minimum and maximum programmes, a tried and true
>Stalinist tradition. But it is completely alien to Trotsky's view of
>things, to the Transitional Programme's method and to orthodox Trotskyism.
>
>The whole point of transitional demands is that they are grounded in
>immediately felt needs, such as democratic needs usually are, but they are
>presented by revolutionaries in full awareness of the fact that a real
>solution to them, their real satisfaction, will not be achievable within
>the capitalist setup. In their discussions and cooperation with others
>working for the solution of the democratic problem, revolutionaries will be
>busy pointing out the necessity of more than just "tinkering" to realize
>the desired solution. Those in the struggle who see the justice of this
>position (ie the inadequacy of even the best "tinkering" reforms forced on
>a reluctant bourgeoisie by militant pressure from workers and popular
>masses) will in the best case become enthusiastic supporters of the need to
>work for a revolutionary transformation of society and see the relevance of
>other struggles beyond the immediate democratic issue that got them started
>to broader issues of social justice and stable prosperity for everybody. So
>mobilization around democratic issues (such as national oppression, women's
>rights, health, welfare, education, freedom of speech and access to media
>and official documents, etc) in a transitional framework is very far from
>being an ultra-left process. It's a method that starts with the
>consciousness of the masses as it is, and raises the level of both
>awareness and organization as it develops.
>
>To work satisfactorily the transitional method needs an authoritative (not
>authoritarian) leadership and a strong revolutionary cadre rooted in
>important sectors of the working class. This is the point of trying to
>build a revolutionary, international Marxist party. This is also the whole
>basis of the struggle to reconstruct the Fourth International, as such a
>party is needed to realize the programmatic goals of revolutionary Marxism.
>The difficulties in building a revolutionary Bolshevik-Leninist
>international demonstrate the terrible handicap the lack of an
>revolutionary leadership creates. Trotsky wasn't exaggerating when his very
>first sentence in the Transitional Programme indicated that the crisis
>facing humanity could only be surmounted by solving the crisis in
>proletarian leadership:
>
>	The world political situation as a whole is chiefly characterized
>by a
>	historical crisis of the leadership of the proletariat.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Hugh
>
>
>
>
>     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of marxism-thaxis-digest V1 #216
>************************************
>
>
>
Stuart



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