File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1997/marxism-thaxis.9708, message 250


From: "Karl Carlile" <expresspost-AT-tinet.ie>
Subject: Re: M-TH: A Small Rant
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:23:01 -0700


KARL CARLILE: Hi Bill! Your posrting was most appreciated by anyway.
Your posting contains a subjectivist standpoint which I, for one,
cannot su*bscribe to.

BILL: The word support to me implies a level of conscious approval that
I would not attribute to the greens. I would have found this a more
plausible line had you argued that environmental catastrophe was a
natural consequence of the unfolding of the logic of capitalism and
hence could not be addressed by a reformist approach such as that of
the greens. Even in this form I would probably disagree as while
capitalism may succumb to an environmental disaster(s)
this is by no means necessarily so as capitalism has proved highly
malleable in the past and may well morph into a form that is both
compatible with environmental constraints and the profit motive. Such a
capitalism would probably be bad news for the vast majority of people,
how about an enviro-fascist state or enviro-imperilism?

KARL: The point, Bill, is that capitalism is in fact progressively
destroying the environment in the interests of  capital accumulation
and at the expense of the working people of the world. However this is
not tantamount to saying tha capitalism will inevitably destroy the
entire environment even though it entails the elimination of the very
conditons of its continued existence, the conditions for profit
maximisation. Clearly it is not in capital's interest to eliminate the
conditions necessary for the accumulation of capital. However the
"logic" of capital is a logic that tends to undermine its own very
existence: the creation of the conditions for socialist revolution.

BILL: The word support to me implies a level of conscious approval that
I would not attribute to the greens. 

KARL: Clearly, in general, one cannot claim that there is, in a sense,
"a level of onscious approval of the envirnomental destruction by
capitalism on
the part of the greens". Yet neither is there, in a sense, a conscious
level of
approval of famine, wars, high unemployment and relatively low living
standards in the world today on the part of many bourgoeis politicians
and ideologues. Yet they are, in effect, supportive of such phenomena
whether they know it or not. The evidence for this is provided by the
character
of their politics and ideology and not by their subjective intentions: 

BILL: .... capitalism has proved highly malleable in the past and may
well morph into a form that is both compatible with environmental
constraints and the profit motive.

KARL: Your above conjecture bears the hallmarks of reformism. One might
equally say that capitalism "may well morph into a form that is both
compatible with" the class interests of the working class "and the
profit motive." However capitalism is no more able to  avoid
progressive environmental destruction than it is the explotiation of
labour power.

By way of conclusion: There is present in capital a tendency  to
progressively destroy the environment. However I cannot pre-empt
history and predict that it will inevtably destroy the environment as
we have known it. I am no desciple of Cassandra although, if I recall
correctly, she did prove correct in at least one of her prophecies...
However the only way  to eliminate these destructive tendencies is to
abolish capitalism and replace it with comnunist relations.


Greetings,
Karl
Karl




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