File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1997/marxism-thaxis.9711, message 301


Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:31:08 +0100
From: Hugh Rodwell <m-14970-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: M-TH: Constructive, reasonable, respectful ....


Justin writes:

>.... Hugh, I did not call to have anyone chucked off any list.
>I said Malecki goes in my kill file and called on you to him in yours.

Fine.

>Incidentally there is no question of "censorship" or a "right to speak" in
>kicking someone off a list like this.

Of course there is.

>No one's right to speak is being
>compromised. There are no civil or criminal sanctions.

Oh yes it is, and oh yes there are sanctions (although not in official
courts of civil or criminal law, but since when was justice to be found in
those places???).

>There are plenry of
>outlets for all kinds of speech. That's the glory of the net. Malecki
>willnever lack for an audience, God bless him. And enforcing basic rules
>of constructivness and civility is not censorship.

Now Justin is saying that every little piece of cyber-space in itself
doesn't matter. So what does he do when every little piece of cyber-space
shuts someone out?? Would he apply the same argument to the right of
private clubs etc to exclude Jews or blacks or women? Where should the line
be drawn, by who or what, and with what sanctions should it be enforced?

>No one here will
>dispute the right, even in terms of participation of the list, of anyone
>to advocate any damn fool position he likes,a s long as it's done in a
>constructive way with reasonable politeness ansd respect for the views of
>others.

Constructive, reasonable and respectful are often just euphemisms for
ideological weapons. Godena on M-International and M-Sci uses expressions
like this to justify arbitrary exclusion of political opponents, and he's
not the only one.

Bob respects the views of others by taking them seriously and drawing out
their consequences. He does this by reasoning (not by being "reasonable" as
in "behaving politely" or "obeying our social norms" -- Nazis and
imperialists are capable of such "reasonable" behaviour). This helps a
discussion get to the bottom of things, as I see it, and this is a
constructive contribution.

Consensus and cozy club rules are not possible or even desirable in a field
like Marxism where there are such huge fundamental contradictions between
different interpretations. Certain basic rules are needed, and we have
them. Any attempt to introduce drawing-room sherry-sipping fantasies as
necessary props for Marxism are just aimed at keeping certain people out.

For godly, sober and righteous Thaxalian discourse -- and for Chrissake
keep the sawdust clean, Bill! And Rob, that spittoon needs emptying ...


Cheers,

Hugh

>
>I hate these discussions. I'm not participating in them any more. Can we
>talk substance?
>
>--Justin
>
>On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Hugh Rodwell wrote:
>
>> >Justin Schwartz wrote:
>> >
>> >>If we
>> >>decline him the attention he evidently craves, maybe he will go amuse
>> >>himself with others of his ilk on m-gen and m-int.
>> >
>> >First of all, M-I is doing quite well; it's not the kind of place that
>> >welcomes the likes of Malecki. In fact, Malecki has been exiled from M-I.
>> >Malecki has been kicked off just about every moderated list he's been on,
>> >in fact, and for good reason.
>> >
>> >Doug
>>
>> Christ, all Bob's got to do is say something blunt and the whole can of
>> worms bursts open again. Also, there's been no good reason for kicking Bob
>> off any list.
>>
>> Doug lifting the lid on his fifth column M-I propensities is a bit too much
>> in this case. M-I is not doing well. If it wasn't for Rakesh, Yoshie and a
>> couple of others who provide a cover for the joint it would be the
>> festering political cesspool it is at its Stalinist heart. With the odd
>> shimmering glow from Mark Jones's drunken tirades. Just like the old
>> Stalinist bookshop fronts -- good stuff on a couple of shelves that's hard
>> to come by (like Rakesh and Yoshie) but really run by a bunch of fossilized
>> counter-revolutionaries who'd love to fill the place with the collected
>> works of Uncle Joe, Brezhnev, Mao, Kim Il Sung or whoever.
>>
>> I wish Justin would just stick to defending himself and attacking Bob if
>> that's what he wants to do instead of immediately making it a political
>> issue of the right to speak -- just look at the Off with his head! reaction
>> that came immediately from Doug!
>>
>> Kill file, delete button, appeals for a boycott, anything you like -- but
>> no bans except for cop-snitching or openly fascist propaganda.
>>
>> As for the family thing, it's more social than individual. And kids today
>> are in a terrible situation. In many ways they're better informed and
>> better equipped to look after themselves than ever before (at least as far
>> as bourgeois society is concerned), but with the prospects of work receding
>> to middle age, their material possibilities of making a go of it are
>> diminishing all the time, and this is accompanied by a complete chasm
>> between them and social empowerment of any kind. Poor devils.
>>
>> One thing about the age of consent that made me think twice when I heard
>> it. Girls may become sexually mature at an early age, but their bodies are
>> often not well enough developed to cope with early childbirth without
>> ripping them up something rotten. I used to be  under the impression that
>> the younger you are the more flexible you are, but this situation makes
>> early sex education and the early learning of responsibility very important.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Hugh
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
>
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