Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:13:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Justin Schwartz <jschwart-AT-freenet.columbus.oh.us>
Subject: Re: M-TH: better shorter but better



I think labeling is not useful. The real point is the actual content of
the positions advocated and the support offered for them, not the
self-description of the general political position of the advocate. If I
said I was a revolutionary socialist, what would that tell you? And what
would it well you, in particular, about whether an argument I advanced
regarding, say, the tenability of the labor theory of value was sound? 

The technique of deciding about arguments and positions from a label
affixed to their proponent has a name in logic: it is the fallacy of the ad
hominem argument. It tells me nothing about the defensibility of Doug's
views about the massacres in the former Zaire or whatever to have him
labelled a "stalinist," because even if he was one, he might be right (or
wrong) for all that. It tells you nothing about my views of the LTV to
have them labelled "empiricist," because even if they are they might be
right (or wrong) for all that. 

We might engage in fruitful discussion about _empiricism_, where that was
an actual vuew that was defined enough for it to be a target of defense or
attack. But that's a different point. I doubt whether there's any fruitful
discussion of "stalinism," which at this point is a mere curse word.

--Justin  

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, DSU wrote:

> As a new memeber on this list I find the numerous 'rantings' (and 
> '>rantings' repeated) both confusing and unhelpful to debate.
> 
> I have been a Marxist since I was at school 10-15 years ago and although 
> I count myself as a Marxist-Leninist (with a stong Kollontai-ist leaning) 
>  I am open to all rational and interesting debate. I dislike Trotskyism 
> especially where it is all theorizing and no practice and a particularly 
> impressed by the activity of some anarchists and the honesty of their 
> position.
> 
> To ease debate I personally would find it useful for people to one state 
> their allegence (perhaps afer their name) rather than leaving us to guess 
> from their attackers (not everyone can be a Stalinist bastard or mad 
> Trotskyist, can they?). Also it does help if messages are short and don't 
> include the whole of the message begin replied to (especially if one 
> tries to print it out).
> 
> I hope all interesting debate is given the space to develope especially 
> for those of us who tend to read more than we post.
> 
> Yours with revolutionary regards,
> 
> John Walker
> 
> Marxist-Leninist
> 
> 
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