Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:21:44 -0500
From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki)
Subject: Re: M-TH: Men and Feminism (was All Work...)


>Bob, why do you think millions of working class women would disagree with
>you? Are they (1) stupid, (2) confused, (3) mistaken, (4) secretly
>bourgeois, (5) hysterical in that characteristically female way, or (6)
>other, please specify?
>
>Doug

Most women, in fact the overwhelming majority of women do not see politics 
as a "gender" question. But I guess the above points would apply to the 
"feminist" and their ideology..Beyond that it is a utopian pipedream. 
Women's liberation can only be brought about though Socialist revolution.. 
And Doug knows very well that the Spartacists ICL have a long record on the 
women's question and also a solution to the oppression that is fundamentally 
imposed on them by capitalism/imperialism--but also the Stalinist variants 
on this question..

But you would make a big hit here with the Swedish euro-communists! they 
have officially writtten in their program that they are a "Feminist and 
Green left party". But it does not change the bottom line of their bankrupt 
politics which fundementally ties women and all workers away from any kind 
of serious attempts to build a Leninist party in this country. What they do 
like yourself is adapt their politics to alien class forces and popular 
front politics..

In fact it is quite clear that both sides at present with the exception of 
perhaps Russ,Hugh, Yuri and myself actually have the same fundemental line 
despite that they oppose each other on the question of the Greens. Both 
sides want to adapt their politics and terminology to bourgeois public 
opinion rather then telling the truth to poor and working class people 
linked to a program of struggle for power..But this also goes for the men 
and women who argue feminism and its politics. It draws not a class line but 
adapts to alien forces connected to petty bourgeois and bourgeois ideology... 

Tonight there was this great program about the so called "healthy" swedish 
chicken which turned into one of these debates which at present is going on 
here. But the point is that both do not escape the bounds of reforming 
capitalism..Despite all the "Marxist" rhetoric on Thaxis about this stuff 
the whole chicken debate for and against the so called "clean" chickens was 
a fluke. Should be noted for the feminists on the list that the hens are 
saved for egg laying and the Roosters are raised for meat. Anyhow the point 
was from all sides basically classless, hip identity politics connected to 
the industry making this "Green" expose not really to see that poor and 
working class people can eat good,cheap chickens. But to undermine the 
Social democratic governments attempts to keep its ban on anti-biotics in 
the food that chickens eat. It turns out that the "clean" Swedish chicken 
has been getting plenty of anti-biotics in the food all the time. But they 
have just put knew names on it and called it something else. So it turns out 
that these capitalist industries are using petty bourgeois green hysteria in 
order to lift the ban on anti-biotiks which turns out never was in effect in 
reality..

The point being that this stuff is always used by people to futher their own 
political interests. If we paste this on the women's movement we find that 
the best thing for the ruling class  that could happen is that women are 
split along gender lines rather then class lines in the interest of 
upholding the present order of things. And despite all the Socialist retoric 
coming from the Stalinists, neo-Stalinists, Mensheviks and new left this 
kind of single issueism and popular front politics is as always a betrayal 
and can and will lead to new defeats of poor and working class people..

Women's situation in society can not be changed by adapting communist 
politics to gender but through a consistent politics and program which 
fights for power at the head of the working class. Leninists are the tribune 
of all of the oppressed. But we realize that their liberation in the final 
analisis can only come about by setting up the DOP and workers governments 
everywhere on this planet...

This stuff is also linked to another discussion starting here on thaxis! The 
"freedom" discussion where once again our "Marxists" are doing all kinds of 
handstands and quotes in order to deny the basic fundamentals. Albight 
occasionally Rebecca and others like to pay lip service to the proletariat 
and socialist revolution we get paragraphs of "Buts" and "Ifs"  which most 
of the time wind up denying the need of a vanguard party and socialist 
revolutions..

Doug on the other hand is not interested at all in this stuff. His little 
quirk is to paint up the trotskyists as haters of everything..Usually our 
hate and polemics is/are directed at the fakers and pretenders who under 
pretentions of being some sort of "Marxist" want to disconnect this stuff 
from the necessity of a party and program which wants to actually lead these 
struggles to victory. With poor and working class people on the other hand 
we have or should have a great amount of patience in trying to convince them 
of where we stand.. Doug on the other hand has proven for quite a long time 
that these lists are for the higher school and has always tried to get the 
prolos thrown off the lists for various different reasons. And for the any 
honest "feminist" on this list I suggest they watch their backs because Doug 
has a contempt fpr poor and working class people which quickly could be 
turned on other oppressed groups in society in order to cover his ass and 
the rag he writes for. How many articles about the womens question has the 
NLO devoted its time to Doug?

The ICL/Spartacists from its foundation recognized the need for a newspaper 
directed to women as a tool in creating power sections in the future and 
Communist Women..

The reply to Rob was mainly directed to Rob. Short and concise because Rob 
openly and honestly has always admitted that he is a Menshevik. And just as 
the Mensheviks made "economism" the bottom line for their politics he here 
to takes the women's question and wants to adapt the party to outside and 
backward pressures that in the final analisis not move things forward, but 
backwards..This is the bottom line of Rob's point on this stuff and why I 
opposed it with my "YES"..Because Leninists do not adapt their politics of 
alien class forces or backward layers of the class whether it be trade union 
questions or "womens" questions. In fact just the opposite..We do not take 
the class or women as is in this society. Because we realize that the 
ideology of the masses in general is fundamentally flawed by bourgheois 
society..The point is to change society and build a communist society..

Warm regards
Bob malecki



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