Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:31:08 +0100
From: Hugh Rodwell <m-14970-AT-mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: M-TH: Value, planning and personal relations


Yo Thaxalites!

An illuminating exchange has sparked between Jurri B and Justin S:

>> For example, I depend for my daily existence and activities on producers
>> and individuals in a variety of European and other countries, but I have no
>> conscious connection with them whatever.
>>
>But under planning you would have a deep personal relation with billions
>of people in faraway countries? Be real.

Talk about sweeping magical gestures!

First Jurri, who forgets that there are trades unions and other working
class organizations, as well as non-working class organizations such as
consumers' bodies of various kinds, all of which can be used to make
conscious connections with producers in other places, and are. Not by
everybody, of course, but by those who experience the lack of contact as a
problem -- say because the boss is trying to play off workforces in
different countries against each other. This is an example of the
socialization of production (and its extensions) behind the backs of the
producers, and the contradictions between the forces of production and the
relations of production.

Then Justin, who makes a meal of Jurri's (and the commonly held) implicit
notion that planning must be perfect, but immediately falls into his own
trap by assuming that personal relations under planned socialism must be
deep ie perfect!! Be real, yourself!!

What will happen (if barbarism doesn't step in first) is that production
relations will become transparent, it will be obvious who produces what and
how and why, and there will be no problem making any *needed* contact with
any one of the billions of direct producers in the world, at the
appropriate level of production. Just as I can fish out any one of billions
of bytes in my computer or on the Internet if I need to, provided
everything's working the way it should. It's potential contacts and
personal relations we're talking about, not actual universal and perfect
relations with everybody.

If Justin thinks deep personal relations with everybody in the world is a
prerequisite for a successful planned economy, then no wonder he's
advocating market socialism -- poor sod.

Lots more, but not just now.

ciao4now,

Hugh




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