From: "jurriaan bendien" <Jbendien-AT-globalxs.nl>
Subject: Re: M-TH: Rape & Punishment
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 14:35:59 +0100


Schwartz writes:

> 2. JB, like a good feminist, advocates pro-active self-defense for women.
> This is generally the view of women's groups. 

I don't advocate this as feminist, but as Marxist and on the basis of
common sense.  One of the points made in the discussion is that many
"women's groups" these days actually don't really seek to empower women
directly, but, through whipping up moral hysteria, seek to empower the
repressive state apparatus to meet out more severe punishment and exert
greater control over people's lives.  This is the sort of development in
the moral climate which LM has been criticising, though of course for
vulgar intellects like Schwartz, this is all "mysogyny" and "sexism".

The statistics show that woman who resist
> with force are much more likely to be seriously hurt. I draw no
> conclusions from this, but it's apparently a fact that any woman should
be
> aware of, if true.

If it is true that - as Schwartz also claims - most women never report
being raped (something which is difficult to verify empirically), then
there is indeed every reason to doubt the statistics.  But my guess is that
Schwartz doesn't genuinely want women to defend or liberate themselves. 
He, Schwartz the feminist and aspiring bourgeois lawyer, would like to be
in charge of defending and liberating women !

> JB puts forward a characteristically mysogynist claim, suggesting that a
> lot of women unjustifiably yell "Rape" and put men away when they haven't
> really done anything bad. This is the sort of sexist crap that pervadesa 
> lot of judicial thinking, if we can dignify the menatl processes involved
> with a cognitive term, on the subject.
> 
	Well suck my dick ! I don't suggest that at all, that is just Schwartz's
vulgarisation of what I said, something which he won't get away with in
court if he ever makes it there (I for one would never engage Schwartz and
his ilk to defend me !). I said specifically, "And at least some of the
cases that I read about in the past where women claimed they were "raped"
seemed pretty dubious to me".  There is nothing sexist or mysogynist about
that claim, and Schwartz is engaging in libellous accusations, a rather
funny thing since he claims to be concerned with the law.  
	For naive self-proclaimed "feminists" like Schwartz, for whom women are
"sugar and spice and all things nice", women can do no wrong ! By the same
token, Schwartz cannot really recognise real sexism or mysogyny when it
occurs, he just imputes it to people he disagrees with.  That is the extent
of Schwartz's "feminism".  
	In this bad old world of ours, women have been known to claim that rape
occurred, when rape did not occur. This is incidentally why we have a
judicial process in the first place, which for all its faults and class
prejudices tries to sort these kinds of things out.  This doesn't occur to
Schwartz maybe, because for him women can do no wrong, but he might study
relevant law cases a bit more until he realises it.

>  In fact most women who are raped never even report it because it's too
> humiliating and they fear the process of exposing their sex life and
their
> pain in a public trial.

If that is true then you have to have your doubts about statistics on the
incidence and prevalence of rapes, and on the tendency of women resisting
rapists to be "seriously hurt".  I have studied disaggregate police
statistics in the past, and worked as research statistician, so I know from
experience that a lot of caution has to be exercised in interpreting the
figures (for example an elementary distinction should be made between
unreported crime, reported crime, and convicted crime).  It is in fact very
difficult to know whether the above claim is true, as it stands it is just
an "intuition" by Schwartz who sees himself as an "expert" on what women
think and feel (a rather ridiculous attitude as I have pointed out on
previous occasions).

I confess I find this debate rather boring.  It's not informative, it
consists merely of the assertion of moral attitudes and norms.

Jurriaan.
 


     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---