File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1997/marxism-thaxis.9712, message 737


From: "Rebecca Peoples" <wellsfargo-AT-tinet.ie>
Subject: Re: M-TH: Lesbians and gays
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:47:59 -0000


Hi Bob,

You posting I found very interesting. I am prepared to learn from your
understanding and experiences. So it is could that we can conduct our
discussion including Hugh's in a spirit of enlightenment.


Bob:
And in and earlier letter today you say that these people never say in their
documents that they want to liquidate the party. True! centrists never claim
that openly...but the do write documents like the previous one and the below
which in fact mean liquidating the party connected to a complete
misunderstanding of the "United Front"..

>An atmosphere of mutual respect for people with different sexual
>orientations must replace the atmosphere of sexist and heterosexist bigotry
>that currently pervades the world workers' movement.

What kind of formulation is the above? I would say it is a classical
sectoralist view of the workers movement because they draw the following
organizational conclusions above and beyond the party which is not mentioned
at all and actually wind up turning class politics on their head..!


Rebecca: Why do you suggest it is a classical sectoralist view given above?
 I dont get you.


>Working class lesbians and gay men must have the right to caucus within the
>organisations of the working class in order to fight against homophobia and
>for full political and social equality.  In order to take the struggle
>beyond specific sectional or local issues, such caucuses need to be linked
>up with specific united fronts and campaigns which could form part of a
>proletarian movement for lesbian and gay liberation.  Revolutionaries will
>fight for political leadership in such united front organisations to win
>lesbians and gay men to the programme of lesbian and gay liberation and
>revolutionary socialism.

Bob:
This is the centrists dilema of seeing the world as it is and then trying to
create some sort of organization form in the form of "fighting united
fronts" At best the formula is that these people want the right of
caucausing the workers movement. The bottom line being that it is not the
party and the proletarian vanguard which are the tribune of all the
oppressed but these fronts, in this case the "gay-lesbian liberation fronts,
where communists will fight to win these people to the program of
revolution. I believe that it will be the exact opposite. That is the party
and vanguard of the class will increasingly draw these perifiial movements
to it as it gathers influence and steam within the class.. Because
communists realize that it is only the party and the workers vanguard which
can provide both the program and social clout which can really liberate
sexuality and not the other way around. This document is really fucking
empirist and the centrist appetite to chase and adapt there documents to the
present petty bougeois popular front radicalism  is very clear and implicit
here..Despite all the left rhetoric Rebecca document misses the point. It
will be the party and the vanguard of the proletariat which will be the
motor and not the other way around. By claiming the "right" for gays and
lesbians to caucaus the workers movement is not wrong on principle. However,
it does point out that these people and yourself rely on something else to
change the world like these "fighting united fronts" which in this case go
usually no futher then reforming the views on sexuality under capitalism.


Rebecca:
 I think I see the point to what you declare above. Not bad!. I had not seen
it like this. I think you may be right.

>The systematic oppression of lesbians and gay men will not be ended whilst
>the bourgeois family is promoted and defended as the model for social life.
Bob:
Oh I don't know about that. Quite a few of the gays and lesbians at least
here in Sweden see the bourgeois family and wedding in church as their model
of sexual liberation.. So by just drawing a gender line by becoming the most
radical defenders of "fighting united fronts" on the above minumalist
program at best will lead to a society much like here in Sweden today. But
the fundamentals of capitalist rule have not changed. So what we have is
some progresssive laws implemented by the reformists and bourgeoisie which
say what you do sexually in your private life is fine, get married if you
want to, have children if you want too, sex education at and early age if
you want to --but class society with the haves and have nots still exist
despite your own particular form of sexuality..


Rebecca: Point taken.

Bob:
Once again you send a document that any left of center Pabloist of the good
old days could have written in order to tail these kinds of movements while
at the same time trying to pay lip service to the Proletariat.. And you do
it by actually putting these single issueism fronts on a pedestal and as and
instrument which will lead the workers forward. I doubt it very much.
Because these movements have always had a popular front character and
completely ignore class society..


Rebecca:
But Bob is the extract quoted above by you not is simply saying that there
exist these gay and lesbain organisations many of which have a relatively
radical agenda. Consequently lets us march with them under different
banners --lets form a united fornt with them towards winning these guys over
to the side of the party. Surely it is not suggesting that these feminist
organisations are united fronts but that united fronts can be formed with
them towards building the party and proletarian movement.

Bob:
In the final analysis these documents are in fact deviding very topdown the
world into the sectors that these militants think there may be a possibility
of getting rich quick by putting a forth documents laced with a little left
rhetoric and using these petty bourgeois environments to "put pressure" on
the workers movement! One big fucking pressure cooker!

Rebecca: Above seems to make sense. A closer study of this piece of yours
reveals some very revealing points I suspect. Good on you.

Bob:
At best the latest documents are and expression of chasing various movements
that exist by pro-claiming them "fighting" united fronts.

Rebecca:
But I dont think the document is suggesting that current fronts are united
fronts. I think it is claiming that the correct road is towards building
united fronts.Coreect me if I am wrong.

Bob:
 This they hardly
are. In fact these fronts are especially popular frontist and specifically
anti-working class..And you want to allow these people to ally themselves
with the working class in "Caucasus" to at best reform society as it is
rather then its revolutionary overthrow. You want to permanantize  movements
that will increasingly play a minor role as imperialist rivalry and
contradictions grow as we head for a new round of imperialist war and
possible revolutions.. These movements that grew out of the petty bourgeois
student environments during a very special phase of history are doomed..


Rebecca:
The piece does not necessarily want to make united fronts permanent. But
perhaps some united fronts may last years. Is this not right. It is not
saying a united front system already exists but that one needs to be built.

Bob:
So I suggest that all of our lesbian, gay friends join a party or a trade
union and struggle not only for their "sexual" freedoms but a program which
can mobilize the only social force in society which actually has the social
clout to garantee not only their sexual freedom but the dictatorship of the
proletariat as we march forth to create first a socialist and in the future
a communist world..

Rebecca:
But the problem is one of getting them to join. And this is why the form of
the united front is necessary. It is needed as a from through which to make
real sustained contact with oppressed layers layers including sections of
the working class (rank and file committees) towards winning inot the party
and thereby further developing the party. The united front system is a form
by which the struggle is fought on a higher plane as a conduit by which
workers and other oppressed elements make the transition to communism. I
cannot see anything wrong with that formula Bob.


Warm Regards
Rebecca









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