File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1998/marxism-thaxis.9802, message 608


Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:55:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Ralph Dumain <rdumain-AT-igc.apc.org>
Subject: Re: M-TH: Re: ethics and intentions


As much as I generally dislike Carrol Cox's political interventions, I must
declare that this time he hammered the nail most efficiently, whilst Justin
doesn't have a clue, all that analytical training gone to waste.  Aside from
creating a perfectly functioning society, probably a chimerical perspective
at this point, I think it is true--and I myself have used an argument quite
similar to Carroll's--that the inability to come to terms with racism also
implies the inability to generate a socialist revolution.  Now if we can
agree that socialism is not just the abolition of private property by a
managerial elite--such as occurred in just about all the "socialist" states
that have come and gone--but a real democratic transformation of social
relations, how can it be accomplished other than by the furtherance of
pan-democratic practices in the population at large, which means a
reconfiguration of all hierarchical relations?  A number of my black friends
are so convinced of the permanence of racism they think it will persist long
into any socialist society, to which my answer is: the persistence of racism
implies the inability to reorganize society along socialist lines.  The same
is also true regarding the liberation of women. (Remember all those old Lina
Wertmuller movies?)  Justin's reply to Cox is totally boneheaded.

However, before Justin dropped the ball, he was right more often than wrong.
I suspect that in a socialist society the urge to rape and murder will
decrease most significantly, and the options and outlets for dealing with
frustration are likely to be much more productive, so I'm not impressed with
some of Justin's what-ifs.  However, even short of all-out mayhem, human
relations are notoriously difficult to manage under the best of
circumstances.  What to do when my dog eats your tulips?  I don't think we
will ever be able to live without rules, regulations, and abstract notions
of principles and rights; it is just not possible in any foreseeable future
to create that degree of inter-individual harmony.  Many of Justin's
scenarios of future conflicts are much more compelling examples than the
lurid rape-and-murder conjectures.

At 07:47 AM 2/25/98 -0500, Justin Schwartz wrote:
>I think probably not any more later. You have solved the problem by
>stipulation. Whatever we get at the end of any social transformation won't
>be socialism, by definition, if involves, e.g., racism. You disguise this
>essentially idealist approach under a materialist cloack by invoking a
>process of change, which you say will result in the exteripation of
>racism. In fact what you have done is to move the "perfect by definition"
>into the process stage. Any process that doesn't get rid of racism (say)
>isn't part of a process leading to socialism. Frankly, I think this is a
>boring party trick.
>
>--jks
>
>On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Carrol Cox wrote:
>
>> > Well, I think you did change the subject. Suppose, though, that we need a
>> > violent overthrough and a lot of solidaristic class struggle to get there,
>> > If I garnt this for the sake of argument, how does that help you answer my
>> > question?
>> 
>> In fact, what you're granting here would have to be argued out in some
>> detail before I'd actually be prepared to make many statements about what
>> would and would not be the case under socialism, but let me take just one
>> for now, the question of racism.
>> 
>> It simply does not make sense to speak of racism under socialism *in the
>> United States* (I do not speak of anywhere else), for the simple reason
>> that we will never have socialism in the United States except through a
>> process of struggle which *along the way* and *within the struggle*
>> essentially destroys racism. If the struggle for socialism does not
>> destroy racism, then neither will it overthrow capitalism. How will you
>> get down off of Mount Everest if you are naked after climbing it? A
>> foolish question, for if you were naked you wouldn't have gotten there.
>> Similarly it is a foolish question to ask how would one handle racism
>> under socialism, for socialism wouldn't exist under such conditions.
>> 
>> So *any* question you ask me about socialism must be first related to the
>> necessities of the struggle for socialism.
>> 
>> Perhaps more later.
>> 
>> Carrol



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