File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1998/marxism-thaxis.9803, message 610


Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:20:44 -0500
From: "Charles Brown" <charlesb-AT-CNCL.ci.detroit.mi.us>
Subject: Re: SV: M-TH: A vulgar marxist here


Hi Bob,

>>> Robert Malecki <malecki-AT-algonet.se> 03/21 12:30 AM >>>




>Charles> >>>  In 1865, the Abolitionist movement (a revolutionary movement in a
historical materialist definition because it's goal was to change the form
of ownership in part of the basic means of production under slavery, i.e.
abolish owenship of slaves) was victorious.  Marx and Engels wrote letters
to Lincoln advising him militario-economically . Marx had said "labor in the
white skin shall not be free while labor in the Black is branded"- sort of
the opposite of your idea that the worker's liberation is prerequisite for
the Black "social movement's " success;

Bob -
Is Marx's words in contradiction to what i said?

Charles -  Marx's words are the opposite of what you said but that doesn't mean what both of you said ain't true.  Division of the working class thwarts it from achieving it's historic task, the one you defend so well, my man. It is in the class interest of white workers to erradicate their racism, unite with their sisters and brothers and have a mardi gras of the people with guerilla theatre.

Bob-
He did say "labor in white
skin" and labor in black"..Now it would appear to me that this in no way
contradicts what I said in that October introduced a new era and in fact a
way out not only for the industrialized working class becoming the
locomotive of history but in fact labor in black skin also.


Charles-
Yes, but things change. The historic possibilty of circa 1917 may have been lost in part.  The configuration of the revolutionary assault may be a transform of 1917.  Just as Lenin and the Bolsheviks learned from the mistakes of the Paris Commune and made adjustments, we may have to learn from the mistakes of 1917 and make adjustments.

Bob-
Wasn't it around
this time we saw the development of the cotton gin thus making moot chatel
slavery in the form of cotton pickers..This was the techinical side of this
stuff --Lenin and the Bolsheviks was the subjective factor in history and
developed Marxist thought into a program of action..


Charles - Yes. I love Lenin. I really do. I have his picture up in my office.   He is dead though. I even visited his tomb when I was in Moscow.  Of course,  we have to refresh our subjective factor with living thought. We too must develop Marxist thought, as you say Lenin did.  Without revolutiionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement, that is action. Revolutionary theory develops over time. Surely , you don't think it was fixed and set at the time of Lenin, as much as we might use Lenin as a model on how to carryout that development.  Everything in Marx, Engels and Lenin emphasizes not to become fixed, but to be a philosophy of change in all senses, not a doctrine. You know the rational kernel of Hegel, change.  The subjective factor is active in thought about theory,not a recitation ritual.

 


Charles
Are you saying that the October Revolution and Lenin developed Marxist thought ?  If you are, we agree.  Did the development of Marxist thought come to an end with  Lenin and the Great October Revolution ?  I don't think so. But if you do, and you seem to say it did, why did it stop developing ?  Did Lenin correct mistakes in Marx' s version of Marxist thought ?

  You don't have to smile through all of your answers, because that's a lot of questions.

 Charlie
 Black liberation is a precondition for proletarian revolution in the U.S.
Today we say it is a main divider of the working class that thwarts the
unity necessary for socialist victory. And it was Marx who said it too.

Bob
Marx said nothing of the sort. You are interpeting Marx wrong and the
solution to the black question in the united States is and will be
Revolutionary integrationism..


 Marx did say something of the sort. Marx said "labor in the white skin...(see above". Which is correctly interpreted and applied to your point about working class victory in the U.S., as I did, as Black liberation is a precondition for proletarian revolution in the U.S. etc. (see above).
   Neither Marx nor Lenin used the term "revolutionary integrationism". Are you updating Marx and Lenin with this "revolutionary integrationism ? If so, I am glad you don't think the last word was said on every issue in 1917. Keep up that theoretical creativity.

Chs.
>    You might say that in the U.S. ending racism is a necessary condition
for emancipation of labor and vica versa.


Comrade Bob-
That the racist ruling class of America will end racism is a reformist
pipedream. Only the seizure of power by the working class through its
vanguard who has a program of Revolutionary integrationism inscribed on its
banners can and will solve this problem. You my friend are shaping Marx to
the movement instead to class..

Chas. - Yes, lets say it as there must be a defeat of racism on the scale of a radical reform within the working class, which is the last thing the racist ruling class would allow, since racism is their main method of dividing the whole working class and forestalling proletarian revolution (as you indicate in spirit). This radical reform must be won in the working class by Comrades like Bob or his international  reflection here in the U.S. if you aren't here. I'm guessing you are white, Bob.  If you mean by a program of revolutionary integrationism you and and other white workers divesting your class of this number 1 class divider, I'm for it.


Chas.-
>     By the way, one of the  distinctions between the
Communist Party U.S. when it was founded , and the Socialist Party from
which it split was on this question.  The C.P. saw the need for a specific
struggle against racism. The SP folded the struggle against racism into the
class struggle. Black workers were just workers.  You seem to have an SP
type position. LIke Debs instead of John Reed.


Bob-
Not really. I uphold the position of Richard Frazer and the ICL (the Sparts)
on this stuff.. This does not mean that communists abstain from fighting=20
rascism. But in all of our propaganda and interventions it should be linked
to a real solution and not tailing black nationalist freedom fighters...


Chas.>     And I agree that the October Revolution showed the way out. although
we have to keep updating some of the particulars.

Bob -
No I do not think you do because you miss the very fundamental ABC's on this
stuff..You paste up skin color instead of class in your analisis. Quite
anti-Marxist in my book..Just as the feminists paste up gender instead of
class..

 Chas.  My position was that of a member Party of the Second International, and was not criticised by Lenin  (A,B,C). Your's is with Richard Frasier ,not one of your fundamental Marxists.

Bob -
In fact "updating" is usually the codeword for capitulation to alien
ideology usually to find a short cut to revolution. Never worked and never
will. In fact Black nationalism is and obstacle to proletarian revolution
just as feminist ideology is..

Chas.  - Lenin's attitude toward nationalism was not as one-sided as yours. That's why many nationalist struggle are called NATIONAL liberation movements by Leninists. For example, the Communist Party of Viet Nam was in alliance with the National Liberation Front. In South Africa the CP is in alliance with the African NATIONAL Congress.  Real inheriters of the letter and spirit of 1917 analyse the U.S. African Americans' struggle as having national liberation elements.



In struggle, C.B.



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