File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1998/marxism-thaxis.9803, message 632


Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:56:32 -0500
From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki)
Subject: Re: SV: M-TH: A vulgar marxist here


 Charlie writes!

>Here's back at you, Bob, the bad boy,

OK! But whats the "badboy" bit?

>Bob says,
>
>To a lot but this last is quite important. So we start their. Sorry Charlie
>but the Stalinists gave it away in Vietnam already at the end of the war
>
>Chas. interrupts - What war ?  WWII  ? or the  Viet Namese war of national
liberation , 1975 ?

Actually both! But I meant WW2 and things like the Geneva Accord. But also
today Vietnam like China is taking a dangerous path tyowards capitalist
restoration.

>
>Chas. =AF I don't know Bob. This sounds like white boy, armchair
revolutionary stuff. The Viet Namese took too long for you to throwout your
fellow Europeans ;  the Europeans were imperialists, mass murderers.  The
Viet Namese GAVE away half the country ?!! Gee, you get mad about that t.v.
show about U.S. heroes. I'm getting a little recentful of your racist
arrogance.  Your fellow Americans TOOK some of the country.  The Viet Namese
won a great victory for the workers of the world.  Has your group of
communists accomplished anything like that ? No.  I think I'll go with Viet
Namese Leninism over your variety.

No not really Charlie. Ever here of the Trotskyists in Vietnam which were a
leading factor in vietnam both before during and especially after WW2..And
stop playing the poor little third worldist. In fact the American ruling
class and its lackies are responsible for Vietnam and not the poor and
working class people in American uniform that died there as cannon
fodder..The Vietnamese peasants and workers won a great victory despite the
Stalinists. And now your charming Leninists want to restore capitalism in
Vietnam..So you can certainly have them. But unlike you Trotskyists have
been in opposition to the politics quite a long time and will continue with
this. But with the death of the Soviet Union Stalinism is also dead and
their will hardly be any new "Vietnams"..

>    By the way, in your Part II "to a liberal" or whatever, when you talk
about the Viet Namese girl tragically burned; and you sort of set it up that
you are on her side versus Nancy.  That was real petit bourgeois phony
stuff. I mean I'm glad you are so angry with rich people, but just because
you are mad at U.S. imperialism (you said a previous comment by Hugh about a
recent story on Viet Nam "bugged the shit out of you".) That's healthy
anger, but not good Leninism to use it as an excuse to dump insults on
Nancy. Nancy did not bomb Viet Nam.  And it was real hokie to write in a
reply to "a liberal" which seemed to imply Nancy, that somehow the
tragically burned Viet namese girl was on your side, along with the old
Black man Willie against Nancy in the argument.

Now you turn the arguement upside down. First you accuse the horrible Trots
of never leading anything. Then you turn around and defend Nancy who never
bombed anything. With Nancy's line she probably would have abstained because
their was no gender line..And I see "Willy", Zeke, and the little Vietnamese
girl" on my side.


>      In my party club, chocked full of workers, men and women, you would
have been criticized for "subjectivity" distorting your analysis.  I think
we need more attention to subjectivity in the party, but you can't claim
clearer thinking than Nancy on the class struggle by trying to make people
sorry for  the Nick's and Eddie's.

I can't make people "feel sorry" for anything. They can only do that
themselves. In fact some of the people from poor and working class people
who have commented on this stuff say nothing about "feeling sorry" but state
in their own terms basically a lot of the same ideas..

>      In summary, your effort to make it out that you are with the victims
, the worse victims, and Nancy is with the victimizers, fails.

Well she does victimize people. Because she has no class perspective.. See
my reply to her today..

>       By the way, it was three old white men, communists retired steel
worker, autoworker and truck driver (among others) who taught me that a main
task of the working class is to fight racism in its ranks, that it is the
main divider of the working class.  They based their analysis on Marx and
Lenin and years of experience at the point of production.    Again sort of a
flip side of the point of your old Willy story on a Black man making a class
point, These white workers make a national liberation point. These three had
stories of their suffering, like your "part two to a liberal ". One went to
jail for eight years during McCarthyism. So they are working class victims
if that's the premise for arguing for you.

National liberation my ass..According to you your "workers" fought racism in
the ranks (meaning union) and this is a class perspective to unify the class
against the class enemy. Only the Stalinists could possibly wind up with
this extremely dangerous idea of "national liberation" which is nothing
other then a suicidal ticket to extinction..Against this is a multi-racial
class struggle and party which vyes for state power in the interests of the
whole class..

>
>Chas. - Bob your version of history is getting more and more dillusionary (
can I say that without Hugh defending your "closest thing we've got to an
authentic working class voice" ?)   So, you don't see the defeat of
apartheid as a liberation. It's really all or none with you , isn't it ? 
Did you ever here of minimum and maximum program as part of Leninism ?

Oh I see! Sort of like Socialism in one country and all that. well where has
all this stuff gotten you. The Soviet union is dead. China is well on the
way and Fidel is on his knees to the pope. And in fact the only thing that
has happened is that Stalinism and Nationalism in South Africa have given
the bourgeoisie time to reorganize and stay in power. The very same people
who stood for apatheid are now in power with the good wishes of the CP and ANC..

>  By the way, regarding our debate generally, I forgot to remind you that
Lenin modified the  slogan. It is now: Workers and Oppressed Peoples of the
World Unite ! Is that alright with you ? Afterall Lenin was a lawyer, so
there might have been some petit bourgeois nationalist sentiment slipping in
there.He didn't say "unite but remember the workers are still the leader of
the two of you ", like it sounds like you want to add on.

I have nothing against Lenin's formulation just the Stalinist interpetation
which has lead to defeat after defeat of the working class and know with the
demise of the Soviet Union has buried Lenins work..

>  And more on Lenin, the revolution was an alliance of workers and
peasants. Lenin knew the workers would have to form alliances with other
oppressed groups.
>   Then on having anything to do with the bourgeoisie, Lenin set up
bourgeoisie in business under the NEP. A Leninist attitude toward the
bourgeoisie is not superstitious.

Classical stalinist mish mash. You still don't get it right Charlie. Lenin's
"alliance"" with the peasantry was connected to the DOP and the Proletariat
in power..The stalinist line is the block of four classes and the slaughter
of the Shang Hai proletariat and much more..

>
> Chas.- You complained about the Viet Namese taking too long to throwout
the imperialists. How long is it taking  ICL inter-penetrating peoples and
revolutionary integration to work ? Are there some Stalinists in ICL
screwing it up ?

Maybe Charlie..But the Trotskyists never handed it over to
capitalism/imperialism like the Stalinists now have done in the ex SU and
well on the way in China..


>Chas. -  my post-whatever theory is that the working classes in the  France
and the ex-Soviet Union are so mature that they acted without the party. The
Soviet People diminished the threat of nuclear species-suicide by
surrendering in the Cold War, giving up their primitive socialism. And  the
French working class is the Dutchboy with its finger in the dike against
European unification.

Well well, now. The working class gave up their "primitive" socialism did
they now.
It is all the masses fault now Charlie. Typical of the Stalinists to find a
scapegoat other then the Trotskyists for their rotten politics. A new twist
in the involvement of Stalinism . It wasn't the trots but the masses fault
that the SU no longer exists.

The French stalinist Charlie are in the popular front government which
breaks strikes and imposes its racist austerity program on immigrants.
Nothing new their they always did this i. In fact during the Algerian war
they turned not only a blind eye to the massacre of Algerian workers but
actively took part in voting for war credits for the imperialist occupation..

>
>Chas. - I agree you have the conservative position. Not because it is loyal
to the old fashion , real Leninism - your positions are a caricature of
Leninism - but because your insulting treatment of the working class's
allies helps the bourgeoisie retain the status quo.

Always looking for those bourgeois allies Charlie. The stalinists never
learn and they always drown the poor and working class people in blood..

>      In the U.S. women and Black people make up over half of the working
class.  Only a party with a radical program connecting working class victory
to the other liberations ( the half of the story that you say is the whole
story) AND specific programatic actions against racism and sexism will unite
the working class for victory against capitalism, sexism and racism.

The Stalinist pop front line in a nutshell. Unite everybody against
capitalism. Where ever have the Stalinists got it right?

>  Chas. - Is it talk radio ?  with callins ?

Both I believe!

Bob malecki



     --- from list marxism-thaxis-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---

   

Driftline Main Page

 

Display software: ArchTracker © Malgosia Askanas, 2000-2005