Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:51:10 -0500
From: "Charles Brown" <charlesb-AT-CNCL.ci.detroit.mi.us>
Subject: Re: SV: M-TH: A vulgar marxist here


What's Happening, Bob ,

Charlie wrote,

   In Detroit, "bad" means "good". You know ebonic rebellion against the old
white supremacist English language. That's part of your persona , I thought,
ruffling the feathers of the petit bourgeosie.


Bob, defending the King's English, replied,
Interesting Charlie. That you think "Ebonics" as being a rebellion that
"ruffles feathers" rather then ghetto youth never getting a chance to decent
school.  
 
 Charles - By "decent school" don't you mean thorough bourgeois, European supremacist brainwashing  ?
    You are right. This is interesting. You are a real fancy "worker". Don't you think the working class is in the process of changing the language from the proper bourgeois tongue ?
     How about the inconsistent, illogical phonology  and other grammar of English ? " I be, you be , he be " is consistent and logical like the working class. " I am , you are, he is " ( and the verb is to BE)  is all over the map, like irrational bourgeois culture.
      Remember, you are talking to a vulgar marxist, fancy pants.

 Bob says - And
stop playing the poor little third worldist.

   Charles - I 'm playing the big, bad Third Worlder, who kicked the White
Man's ass. Actually, I 'm giving the Viet Namese credit where credit is due.
I am not Viet Namese myself. But I can kind of identify with them if you
know what I mean. Identity polittics and all that.
      THE white man is not you Bob.  The Negro and the Worker are allies.
See Lenin's Letter to the Negro People, or something like that.

Bob
Well, Trotskyists certainly did identify with the Vietnamese people too. In
fact they wanted to take their country back already before the war ended in
1945. Unfortunately the Stalinists made a deal deviding the country and
killing all opposition to their plans of "peaceful co-existence..

Bob says, In fact the American ruling
class and its lackies are responsible for Vietnam and not the poor and
working class people

Charles askes: Why do you keep using the phrase "poor and working class
people " ?  Poor people are working class people. Unemployed working people,
and the working poor. Your usage tends to divide the class. This is not a
theoretical peccdillo (how do you spell that ?)  In the U.S. the separation
of the poor into a socalled underclass and self reference by workers who
have enough not to be poor as "middle class" is a huge barrier to class
consciousness in the class.  Divide and rule, divide and rule.

Bob
Well, we do have a huge amount of people who in fact never have been
integrated into the organized labour movement. It is sort of like
pre-revolutionary Russia where you had a number of millions of landless
peasants all over the place. Basically the same thing albeit far worse in
fact because the landless peasants usually did have a plot to grow their own
food..

Charles -  Being organized into the labour movement is not the definition of working class. By that , in the U.S. 85% of the wage laborers are not in the working class.  Are you saying the unemployed are not part of the working class ?

Chas. says - Long live Ho Che Minh. Long live the Viet Namese Communist
Party. Long live the glorious victory of Viet Namese People in the hearts of
the Workers of the World. !

Bob..
Well, that is quite clear support for Stalinism. However you missed the
point. Vietnam, like Cuba were able to carry out their deformed revolutions
just because of the existence of the Soviet Union and China. This
unfortunately is no longer the case. So I am afraid Charlie is howling in
the wind..

Charles -  Are you making points.? I thought you just liked to make me look good.  Are you saying that its unfortunate that no more deformed revolutions will not be able to be carried out ? Are you saying they were deformed but better than no revolution at all ?
When you say you are afraid , are you afraid of the howling ? That Ebonics might be ruffling your petit bourgeois feathers with some indecent schooling. What would the queen think about such noise ?

Bobby turns things back right side up by saying,

Now you turn the arguement upside down. First you accuse the horrible Trots
of never leading anything.

Charles interjects - I just scrolled back. I didn't say horrible Trots never
lead anything.  Leon Trotsky led the Red Army in the Civil War with the
Whites. At least Trotsky was together enough to join the Bolsheviks before
October of 1917, unlike a lot of other Mensheviks. Even Plekanov was
bickering with the Bolsheviks when it was time to throw down.  Although
Trotksyites have not led a struggle to state power that I know of , they
have remained a sort of loyal opposition to Stalinism, actually existing=20
socialism in its first stages of development.  Ironically, given your
emphasis against the petit bourgeoisie, Trotskyism has been an activist
organizational home to many progressive petit bourgeoisie, especially
intellectuals. You know in the BIG SHOW the working class will draw the
petit bourgeoisie to itself as an ally.

Bob:

Well Charlie the classical "Trotskyite" Stalinist analisis..And once again
the "new" Stalinists talking about the "first" stage of Socialism.
Interesting twist from the decades of building socialism in one country
Charlie! Charlie the Stalinists blew it and handed the land of October back
to the imperialists. The biggest defeat that the working class has ever
suffered..And now the clones are out trying to pick up the pieces with the
same popular front orientation as always. We tail everybody and everybody is
the working class. From Nancy to the Dali Lama! How quaint..

Charles - everybody but the poor. Seems you have to have a little money to be working class in your opinion; and you best speak good English, or you might be indecent.
     Is the Troskyist position that Trotsky did not lead the Red Army and did not join the Bolsheviks in July 1917 ?  My mistake, Troskyites haven't ever led anything, like you said last time.
     Yes, the thrust of October 1917 has been spent. Nothing lasts forever. Hey, but there may be a political earthquake in France, Have you read the list ? Or maybe you have news from the results of revolutionary integrationism and interpenetration of peoples somewhere on Earth, besides in your mind.

Bob -
Well she does victimize people. Because she has no class perspective.. See
my reply to her today..

Charles -  Nancy seems to have a WORKING class perspective to me.  Most
women are working class, so a feminist perspective representing most women
is a working class perspective.

Bob
Nancy is trying to paste her liberal feminist ideology connected to eastern
mysticism onto the workers movement at best. We are all just one big happy
family..Of course you support this stuff Charlie. The Stalinists at least
these days are tailing the new mass movements of fems and greens and
adapting ideology to them..

Naturally you call this a development since the time of Marx and Lenin. But
I doubt id it will get poor and working class people into power..A "bill of
rights" for women and minorities--how charming--Proyect come out of the
wings--Charlie is blowing your bugle!


Chas. - The one big happy will be at the Party of a new type. Yes, there will be music and dancing. You don't have to speak proper English to get in.

Charles says -   "My" workers were their own men and were just as much
workers as you are a worker. They fought racism in the union and in other
venues and  institutions of the working class. Another slogan they had was 
" One class one fight. Black and white unite and fight "  more working class
terminology than "interpenetration of peoples " and "revolutionary
integrationism". Yes, there is a unity and struggle of opposites here -
national liberation and proletarian internationalism, at the same time. Read
Lenin on national liberation and social emancipation for the revolutionary
resolution of this dialectic. Your  LIVING  brain will tell Fraser a thing
or two after you do that.

Bob..

Do you really want to discuss the politics of the American CP during and
after the war Charlie. Neil, our Bordigist certainly would love this. Your
proletarian Internationalism was nothiing but patriotic flag waving in
defense of the fatherland
and breaking strikes in America which impeded the war effort..

Charles - Yea, better to hand the land of October over to the Nazis. Let them wipe out all the Stalinists and indecent speaking workers and get a fresh start. Probably would have been easier for the Troskyites to lead the Viet Namese to a more rapid victory that way too.


Bob -
And the Stalinist record on the womens question historically was to heroizr
the "Babuska" and holy proletarian family of Stalin which designated women
back to the kitchens and baby producing..

Charles - Yea, but I don't know if you, Bob,  would like  the Trotskyites'  filling the workers' heads with feminist notions distracting them from their main class task - learning to speak properly.

Bob says,
Classical stalinist mish mash. You still don't get it right Charlie. Lenin's
"alliance"" with the peasantry was connected to the DOP and the Proletariat
in power..The stalinist line is the block of four classes and the slaughter
of the Shang Hai proletariat and much more..


Charles - Are you saying that the NEP was Stalin's program ?

     All power to the revolutionary "dictatorship" of the proletariat,
necessary for suppressing the ever more monsterous dictatorship of the now
super-imperialist bourgeoisie.  Since half of the proletariat are women, the
DOP hereby declares itself a feminist international. It's not so much an
alliance with "women". Women are half of the proletariat, and these advanced
thinking men workers realize a key class unity will be consolidated if they
divest of patriarchy. The proletariat are real men, conscious species-beings.

Bob,
No not the NEP but the block of four classes Charlie. Much the same line you
are pushing today in a more modern version..And if half the women in Russia
were the proletariat then why did Stalin treat women like he did. Was it the
Stalinist version of NEP?

Chas. - Stalin made some mistakes.  But I'm not a Stalinist anyway. I think you are arguing with some other voice howling inside your head from the past.  Your brain is not at all dead. It has a lively imagination.

Chas. -  Bob, what did the Troskyists have to hand over ?  I can see you
saying the Chinese might become capitalist /imperialists, but I don't see
them "handing it over" to some other capitalists. Don't you think that
pernicious nationalist non-liberation might block that ?

Bob...Interesting Charlie the mirrored version of building socialism in one
country with the freight train going in reverse!

Chas.  -  You should be a filmmaker, these images, "Just your 'magination once again, runnin' away with you "  (ebonics song).

Charles- No, you misunderstand. I am saying the working class did good. 
They got rid of the Party in the SU (for the reasons mentioned. It was not
the masses fault, but their virtue, in contrast with the Stalinist,
bureaucrat's fault. They overcame the misleadership you describe.  They
don't have socialism, but it is not capitalism.  As you said, stayed tuned
to see what the working class in Russia, and France does next, to an extent
without a vanguard. It is a super workerist hypothesis I am putting forth. I
am not conservative like you.

Bob--back to where we started Charlie. The movement is everything the goal
nothing...My how popular this is today on this list. A grand coalition of
Mensheviks, neo Stalinist clones and feminists..Gonna be interesting
watching the ideological flim flam from this new movement.

Chas. - You forgot Bernstein "the movement is everything". You could make a film about this flim flam; flim flam film

Bob -Always looking for those bourgeois allies Charlie.

Charles - No allies among the working masses , like peasants and newly
proletarianized strata (See the Communist Manifesto on the
proletarianization of former middle strata,  wage laborization.  Also, the
petit bourgeoisie are objective allies of the working class when the BIG
SHOW  goes down.  See Lenin on this.

    Our (the working class) attitude toward the bourgeoisie is to divide and
use them. For example, Lenin did not allie with the bourgeoisie (like the
American Armand Hammer) he played chess, using their interimperialist
rivalries.  Lenin said the capitalist will sell us the rope with which we
hang them. Scared of the bourgeoisie are you , Bob ? Don't be
superstitious


Bob -
All those Stalinist zig zags Charlie..Draped in Lenist rhetoric will never
cover up all of those historical defeats that the Stalinist are responsible
for. And to top it off you ain't even got the Soviet union to back you up
any longer..The real crime however is that it was the working class and poor
that have paid in blood and the loss of the land of October which put the
final nail in the coffin of Stalinism. And as you leave the stage of history
the clones of Stalinism have not learned one thing. As they say there are
rivers of blood between the "Trotskyites" and the Stalinists.

Chas. -  What will the Trotskyitistsoreans do without Stalinists on the stage ? It will be like Mutt without Jeff.

Lukewarm regards,
   Don't call me Charlie, it's slangy indecent



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