File spoon-archives/marxism-thaxis.archive/marxism-thaxis_1998/marxism-thaxis.9804, message 155


Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:58:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: M-TH: Self-Emancipation of Women or Hetero-chauvinism?


Charles wrote:

>          It is a shame that this argument would have two
>     women thinking that I am anything but an ally on this, or
>     have you trying to discourage me from promoting
>     feminism among men.
>          However, I will continue to promote feminism among men
>    and  women, on and off the list, because I think
>     what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

We differ on what "the shame" is.  To me, the shame is that you, and several
other men on the list who insist that they are "allies" of women, can't even 
seem to conceive of the fact that if they want to be allies they may have 
to change their thinking, learn to think differently.  You seem to be incapable
of listening to the people you are supposedly solidarizing with.  "Listening",
to oneself and others, implies a willingness to stop thinking what one is 
thinking.  I get the impression that the image of being an "ally" of women 
is for you a point of male pride the way the size of dick might be to another,
or "chivalry" to another.  You remind me of men who insist on opening doors
for women out of insistence that they, the men, _know_ what "real respect for
women" is, whereas the women are too stupid or too brainwashed to appreciate
such fine things.  _You_ know what is "good for the goose", and the goose better
learn to appreciate this.  _You_ will continue to "promote feminism" without
even re-evaluating whether what you are promoting is, or is not, in any
meaningful sense, "feminism" to those people who you are supposedly serving.

I am not saying that the activities you are engaged in, or propose to be
engaged in, are not of service to the cause of women.  I agree that the views
expressed by the women on this list are not necessarily representative of
"women" (whatever this means), not necessarily correct, not to be taken
as some kind of gospel.  Nothing should be taken as representative, correct,
or gospel.  But when I read most of your posts, and posts by other loudly
self-declared "allies", they sure do not sound to me like allies discussing 
things with allies.  They sound like a bunch of male chauvinists trying to
pose as feminists and getting angry at the women for not being in enough awe.
They sound like very old and familiar crap, only now clothed in "Marxist"
trappings.



-m


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