File spoon-archives/marxism-transition.archive/marxism-transition_1998/marxism-transition.9804, message 37

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:17:23 -0400
Subject: Out of the ashes of Jefferson Village!

Despite Rolf's and  polanco's defense of the on democratic procedures I 
still say the list charter is not negotiable.

!. Open to all in the workers movement.

2. No fascists!

3. No cop/agent baiting without proof...

As to a concensus on specific stuff. For example Vlad's attempts to build 
and all encompassing solidarity committee on the lists should be seen as 
just that a concensus. Not a rule that on principle has to be followed. 
Especially if that rule "democratically" voted on might be considered 
political suicide...

However this by no means stops Vlad and others from taking that 
iniative...But this certainly should not be used to stop and argue against 
this kind of stuff..

So once again I think that this "Aye and "Nye" iniative is not at all 
thought out nor its consequences..Nor has it anything to do with democracy 
and especially proletarian democracy..

In fact the only serious democracy is "democratic centralism" and this only 
applies to the party of the future Russian revolutions..and not to lists on 
the Internet..This means my loyalties are to the program and politics of a 
specific current. Not a family of the left who agrees to disagree..This 
until the workers seize state power and introduce their form of democracy 
under the dictatorship of the proletariat which in its first phases will 
hardly be democratic for certain elements. But until then "democracy" that 
is being argued here is and obstacle to proletarian revolution..

All this stuff which Hugh aptly put as "end of school" kind of stuff 
reflects hardly any seriousness for rightous and open exchange of ideas, 
ideologies and programs. What is determining content is NOT democratic 
concensus or a limit to postings which seems to be mainly driven out of fear 
of flame wars going out of steer is ridiculous..

In fact just because the workers movement and the left sees out as it does 
today is just because of the historical ideoligical conflict which centers 
on who is going to lead what where!

To try and put a fake democratic concensus or limit on posts to these 
discussions is in fact trying to use a fire extinguisher filled with 
sleeping pills to avoid the absolute vital necessity for political clarity 
and a struggle of programs and ideas which must and will confront each other 
and vy for the leadership of the proletariat and all of the oppressed..

Those who try to use organizational manuvers (despite their kind arguements) 
actually are a hinder to the process of seperating the corn from the straw 
and forging through debate and struggle a platform and atmosphere for all 
who come to the lists to read, take part in or just lurch and draw their own 

What is atr bottom of this is the wacko idea that the *LIST* is more 
important then the deadly need of creating a leadership with a program and 
ideology which can show the way out for the *ONLY* revolutionary force in 
the world. The working class..

In fact saying to the working class that you have to organize yourself on 
the basis of a three post a limit for the good of the lists and on M-G the 
wacko idea of fake democracy which puts the list order before the 
revolutionary struggle of the proletariat and the deadly need which the 
lists are a vehicle for of having political ideas and programs that confront 
one another it a battle which not only is being fought out in *real* life 
everywhere. Look at Australia, Germany, Denmark, Bolivia, Ireland, South 
africa as else where.

What we have all of a sudden is a list fetischism which not only puts the 
*LISTS* outside of living reality but on a fucking pedistal not as a tool 
for the working class but a bunch of list administrators, moderaters, and 
other new words that Hans is now dreaming up to serve this function..

In fact what we are seeing is the effects of both the Stalinist bureaucracy 
and Social Democratic bureuacracy being reflected through the prisms of some 
of our leftists trying to impose a jockstrap on rightous political struggle..

It would be like the Australian dockworkers who I am quite sure are being 
told that we have to wait for the court, the state, the trade union 
bureaucracy and all the rest before actually deciding what we need to do in 
our interests. A completely wacko idea from a working class perspective 
being that we have nothing to lose but our chains!

I think that the arguements at present over posting limits and fake 
democracy are in fact deservedly wanting the question of just what these 
lists are for? Are they going to be a forum for poo and working class people 
and all who claim to want to take part or lead this great International 
struggle or a list for petty bureaucrats, administrators and new bureaucrats 
dreamed up by Hans Exbar and others in order to CONTROL these lists..

There is a real deviding line here! On the one side the millions of 
oppressed the world over who if they are going to get anything out of these 
lists will have to be open and hard hitting struggle about politics and 
where we want to go..On the other side the school teacher mentality 
connected to bureaucratic practices in the labor movement which always have 
meant that poor and working class people don't do anything without our 

In fact this is a vital and deadly question.And every poor and working class 
person must oppose any kind of bureaucratic hinder to finding a way out of 
the situation thay finf themselves in..

The new lists now taking form are and attempt to politely gag and put rules 
on the lists which now become more PROFOUND then the living struggle of the 
oppressed to break those chains that both the ruling class, bourgeoisie and 
its lackis in the workers movement either conciuosly or unconciously try to 
impose on them for our own good.

Fuck OFF people. The only real good is moving the struggle forward and on to 
higher levels. Just look at Australia. Not by having a potential Potemkin 
Village of list bureacrats trying to make their lives and problems the rules 
for gagging and limiting the creation of many open and rigtous lists..

Down with the bureaucratic Potemkin Village bureaucratic mentality now being 
served to us here.

Long live rightous political struggle on open and "undemocratic" lists which 
these are and only can be!

Warm Regards
Bob Malecki


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