Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:07:16 +0800 From: Adam Bandt <bandt-AT-cleo.murdoch.edu.au> Subject: Kliman's paper This message is forwarded from Andrew Kliman in response to comments from me (Adam Bandt) about his paper on value (available at the marxism ftp site). >Thanks for your very thoughtful comments on my paper. I can't post this reply >generally, since I'm not yet on the Marxism list. I'd encourage you to do so >if you can. > >My reply is also very preliminary--I'll need to study your comments more >carefully. > >One key difference is evidently that I affirm and you deny the "objectivity" of >value. But you actually seem to object to the idea that value is physical, >natural, or grounded in the physical/natural. I also object to this. I >consider value to be specifically capitalist, social, non-material BUT also >objective. The objectivity is a historically specific and social one. As >Marx says about money as the universal incarnation of abstract human labor >(in the fetishism of commodities section), this idea, which is absurd, is >socially valid, and therefore objective, [only] for this determinate mode >of production, commodity production [paraphrase--I don't have the text in >front of me]. So for Marx, objective doesn't equal natural or physical. We >can have something made objective by being "socially valid." This is exactly >what I think is the case with value--it is objective because and only because >we live real value relations (under capitalism), whatever we wish to CALL >them. > >This leads to the other, related, difference: you consider this all a >mystification. Of what? Evidently of some physical, eternal, relations that >don't take >the value-form in other societies. But I don't think the fetishism of >commodities is mystification or something that "masks" real relations. >Following the >interpretation developed by Raya Dunayevskaya (see especially _Marxism & >Freedom_, _Philosophy & Revolution_, and _Rosa Luxemburg, Women's Liberation, >and Marx's Philosophy of Revolution_), I think the appearances are bizarre >because the (specifically capitalist) reality is perverted. We live in a >society in which "the process of production has mastery over man, instead of >the opposite" so that the social relations of production do not appear as >direct socia relations of people at work, but as "WHAT THEY ARE"--material >relations between persons and social relations between things (quotes from >fetishism section; capitals added). Thus value relations, and therefore >value, are not an illusion. The latter expresses this subject/object >inversion, which occurs in the process of production--"value, i.e. the past >labour that dominates living labour" (Vol. III of Capital, p. 136, Vintage/ >Penguin ed.)--and which is "objective," not because it is something natural >or eternal, but because it has a real existence in THIS society. > >Two other points: (1) I don't understand why you think I "take Marx's >precise concept of abstract labour and strip it of its precision." (2) I do >think >value refers to a subject/object relationship, not a subject/subject >relationship. >I don't think it has to do with relationships among workers, and as for >relations between workers and capitalists, it does refer to them, I think, but >Marx >considers the capitalists to be PERSONIFICATIONS of dead labor, capital. So >value is a subject/object relationship that APPEARS as a relation between >people. > >Thanks again. I'll give your comments more study soon. > >Andrew Kliman >60 W. 76th St., #4E >New York, NY 10023 USA >(212) 580-0206 (home) > > --- from list marxism-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu --- ------------------
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