Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:26:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: glevy-AT-acnet.pratt.edu
Subject: Re: Yugoslavia- despair?


Han has written some very interesting comments on Yugoslavia and related
issues.  Some comments:

> I would like to ask some questions on the debate about Yugoslavia?
> >How come if we discuss yuguslavia we gorget everything about class position.
> If we really want to knouw what is going one over there we have to study the
> interests of each of te paticipants in this war.  And not in the least the
> interests of Germany (The New European Comunity), The USA and russia.

We discussed the above questions in recent days.  You might be able to
get copies of previous posts on this thread, but don't ask me how as I'm
not exactly sure.

> Did not war start in Yugoslavia the day Germany declared the Croatian poeple
> have the right off sefdetermination?  Did not we here this german excuse
> about 50 years ago, and eaven more in 1914?
> How come we see the Neo Nazi's ruling in Croatia.
> Yugoslavia is for the Germans the road to Turkey (geografically), it was in 1914
> in 1940 and in 1995.
> Wich are the intrest of Germany and the 4=B0Reich (E.C.) in Yugoslavia?

It is true that what happened during WW2 is of relevance for
understanding the nationalist tensions between Croatia and Serbia.  It is
a fact, for instance, that many Croatians collaborated with the Nazis and
assisted in the mass killings of Serbians by the Nazis.  Following the
war and with the establishment of Yugoslavia, Tito attempted to hold
together the many separate nationalities that composed the Yugoslavian
republic by making a number of accomodations.  One such decision of
relevance was the decision not to attempt to bring all those who were
responsible for war crimes to justice.  Since the Croatian Nazi
collaborators were never tried, many Serbians have felt that the death of
their people had not been avenged.  Also, Tito divided Yugoslavia into
different provinces which many Serbians felt took land away from what
they considered historically to be part of Serbia, and gave it to other
provinces.   Consequently, this explains somewhat the popular desire for
more land in  an independent Serbia and, therefore, the fighting over
boundaries.

I don't think I agree with the idea that the civil war in Yugoslavia was
engineered or initiated by the German government.  I believe, given the
long history of nationalist rivalry in this region, that there was bound
to be conflict among those nations about where the boundaries should be
drawn.  A vital factor here is the size and composition of national
minorities in each of these areas.  It is not coincidental that the
fighting in Bosnia has largely been led by the Serbian minority in Bosnia
since they have a lot to lose in terms of power if "their" areas become
part of Bosnia.

> Is ther really any ntion who wants this ware to be stopped.  Maybe some arab
> nation who really have som sipathi for the Moslim poeple who are slougtered
> in the name of the christia God (Serbia & croatia).
> But I thin that neither the USA, Neither the 4=B0reich want this war to be
> stopped.  It is a battleground on wich they can play with te latest
> technology's.  They can check out far they can take public opinion, how many
> days can U.N. soldiers be taken as hostages befor public opinian reacts.
> For the first hostages ther was an emediat reaction, but today,...??
> Wich High Tech diplomatic trick can we use.
> ...

I think that the US, French, and British (at least) governments want this
war to be ended.  What they don't want to do is risk their own military
forces in an area that has little meaning for them now in terms of
wealth-creating ability.  They want the war to end but lack the incentive
and the will to end the war.
>
> >The war in yugoslavia is a war between Imperialist countrie's : USA,
> 4=B0Reich, Russia.  In this ware there is no side to choose.  Yes the side of
> those who aren not blinded by Nationalism or Chritian & Moslim Fundamentalism. 
> We have to demand our government to stop the UN intervention, ther can't be
> any intervention of an Imperialist state with the goal to maintain Peace.

If this were an imperialist war, then the imperialist powers wouldn't be
so indifferent to its outcome. I believe that it is *primarily* a
nationalist war(s) in which each of the imperialist powers have a
essentially secondary role. Both Germany and Russia do have important
political and economic interests in the region, and that explains to some
degree their policy on the wars. Yet, Germany and Russia (or the US and
the UK) did not start the war or fight the war themselves.  I believe
that your understanding of the was as imperialist rests on your previous
understanding of the role of German imperialism (which I disagree with).

Should there be UN intervention?  On principle, I am normally opposed to
such intervention.  But, there are exceptions to most rules.  If, for
instance, massive bombing of Serbian targets can get the Serbia
government to pull back its forces and leave the "safe havens" alone,
then I think I'd favor that at this point.  To simply call for peace
would allow the genocide to continue.

> If Moslims have a place in the global human race?
> This is a pretty strange question.  I ame neither a Moslim a Jew a
> Christian, I cinsider myself being an Athe=EFst.
> My girlfriend's mother is Jewich, but my girlfriend does not consider
> herseld being an Jew.  being a Jew is being a member of religious comunity.
> We should have respect for all religions and we should fight all relegions. 
> In the name of god we wher fighting against Irak.  In the name of god wher
> fighting German soldiers.  In the name of god are fighting zionist
> soldier's, in the name of god are fighting Serbes,...
> Marx once said :"Relegion is a drug (Opium) for the poeple.

I very much disagree with the above formulation.  Although I am an
atheist, I am also Jewish.  Jews are a people and not merely followers of
a religion -- Judaism.  There is a long tradition of secular thought
amongst Jewish people in the modern era  (from the 19th thru the 20th
Centuries).  Jewish people themselves do not consider religious belief to
be the defining characteristic in terms of whether one is considered
Jewish.  I have always been told that, whether I am an atheist or an
Orthodox Jew, I will be forever counted as being Jewish.


The expression "we should fight against all religions", is a formulation
that I disagree with.  I agree, as an atheist, that religion is "the
opiate of the masses."  Yet, there are other opiates as well such as
television and sports.  How should we fight against those opiates?

Yes, many wars are waged by religious forces, although, frequently there
are larger economic and social forces that give rise to these conflicts. 
We have to understand all of the forces that cause these wars if we are
to understand the wars themselves.

 > Once again sorry for my language.
> My native language is not English, if I use the wrong words, i'm sorry.
>
There is nothing wrong with your English. We all understood your
meaning.  Keep writing.

Jerry

>
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