Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:20:25 GMT
From: Chris Burford <cburford-AT-gn.apc.org>
Subject: soc.politics.marxism




A few weeks back Jerry forwarded to the l'st
without comment a call for expressions of interest
in a proposed Newsgroup  soc.politics.marxism 
to be moderated by Chris Faatz.

(I had avoided commenting at the time because I have
a tendency to be irritated by Jerry's contributions
about the l'st which I usually find depressing and 
unconstructive, rather than sobering. As people
also know I feel he has a vested interest in these
matters as an owner of a left wing political 
economy l'st, which does not seem to have offered
much cross fertilisation to this l'st. My 
shocking suspicion for which of course I have no
proof, is that Jerry's conduct has become more
consistent with that of a predator than a symbiont.
I am sure however he will survive this foul innuendo.)


My own view is that this l'st  is near the ceiling of
its capacity and if there is any value in it, one thing
it will do is spawn related internet activity.
If there is milage in a newsgroup why not try it, but
I would be worried that sectarian tendencies would see this 
as a zero sum game rather than a win-win interactive 
situation.

It is better to be able to debate these things in terms of 
relative advantages and disadvantages of different ways of 
doing things. It does not have to be mutually exclusive.
Kit Gunn's observations of different cultures are interesting.
It is almost like ecology. Different life forms have different
niches.

Ralph's warning about political parties just posting to 
us seems pertinent. 

>>>There is one major problem, and it is neither flaming nor
hostility.  It is the hijacking of a discussion l'st by sectarian
propagandists engaged in sect wars that nobody cares about except
their brothers/sisters or competitors. <<<


My understanding is that a Usenet Newsgroup
billboard type of format is even more vulnerable to this than
we are.

In the IGC/APC left progressive network which has subscr'bers
in a five figure number, they seem to call that format a 
conference. People send in their statements, and you can visit 
to look at the wall of statements.

One of these "conferences" is called gen.socialism, and was started
in 1992 by an apparently open minded "facilitator". Among his opening
remarks were the following:


>>>>

   At the same time the world has undergone profound upheaval.
Due in large part, in my humble opinion, to many similar
weaknesses, the so-called socialist world has been wracked with
crisis after crisis, and has, to a very great extent, been
destroyed.  Many parts of this world are seemingly headed back to
capitalism, others are staging a desperate struggle to maintain
their socialist character.  All of this cries out for analysis.
This is what lead me to propose this conference.  I hope this
will be a forum where this kind of analysis can take place -
where we, the progressive activists in the US, can discuss and
debate these questions - indeed where we can discuss just what
the questions ARE.

   I would like to start off by proposing some specific
"theoretical" questions for discussion.  The choice of these
particular topics reflect only my own point of view, and I
encourage other netters to add their own.  Mine include:

      Dialectical materialism - is it useful?
      What is a "market economy" - is it capitalism?
      Is the "classic" definition of socialism still valid?
      What is/should be the role of the state in developing a
         non-exploitative economic system?
      What is/should be the role of any political parties or
         organizations in that development?

   I will try to start off the discussion on each of these with
an opening statement.  Please join in!
<<<



I did a census on its total of 57 posts 
from 1st Jan to 21st Feb 1996,  52 days

There was only one post that sounded at all like an 
interactive communication: a question from "WLS Radio"
The rest were all statements or announcements.


16 New York Marxism School
13 Peoples Voice
13 Workers World
 5 The Militant Newspaper
 2 MIM
 2 3rd Parties '96
 1 The Organizer
 1 Green Left Weekly
 1 International Viewpoint
 1 Jim Marvin WLS Radio
 1 Conference announcement
 1 Meeting announcement



It looked more like a white dwarf than a red giant.


I tend to think that the independent posters to our l'st, 
individualistic, troublesome, argumentative, though they are,
*providing* the l'st is not taken over exclusively by e-mail
isolates who can spend 6 hours a day at the terminal,
are a necessary lubricant and challenge to both the champions
of the political parties, and to the academics. 

I suspect that the independent posters would have less 
influence in shaping the culture on a Newsgroup/bulletin
board type of format. But who knows how things may work out.


Ironically although our l'st may be threatened by 
the political parties, it is also threatening to them. If 
challenged they have to get into dialogue which breaks down 
their implied exclusive claim to "the correct line".
I was somewhat encouraged to read Adolfo accept that the PCP 
may not have a fully worked out strategy for dealing with
the 7 million inhabitants of Lima, and to read Luis Quispe
say he had learned a bit about Trotskyism. We shall see.

May the creative conflict continue. 

As creatively as opposed to destructively, as possible.


Chris
London.

 
[Carrol, you have already deleted this haven't you? No complaints
necessary. I can still read you, which I enjoy. We are all happy. 
But then you haven't read this have you? Like how you always 
boycotted the discussion of agenda's at political meetings. 
Such naivety lasting into middle life! How did you ever achieve 
anything political at all if you boycotted discussion of agendas 
in which the the shape of things is so often decided? I am curious, 
charmed and highly sceptical. 
But then you haven't read this. We are all happy!]



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