Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 08:19:41 GMT
From: Adam Rose <adam-AT-pmel.com>
To: marxism-AT-jefferson.village.virginia.edu
Subject: Re: fascism, class consciousness



> On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Adam Rose wrote:
> 
> Louis: The French events didn't come out of the blue. They were 
> "detonated" by a powerful student movement which in turn was precipitated 
> by the international antiwar movement.
> 

Of course, in retrospect, they didn't come out of the blue.
There were a few bitter strikes in the run up to 68 as well,
which in retrospect were signs of the coming battle.

The point I was making was that at the time, no one saw them
coming.

> > I think you, Louis, underestimate working class consciousness in
> > the US, and that this dovetails with your unneccessarily
> > conservative organisational outlook, which has been discussed at
> > great length.
> > 
> 
> Louis: It's interesting that Jim Miller, a sympathizer of the American 
> SWP, and Adam Rose, a member of the British SWP have a common assessment 
> of the period we are in

<stupid stroppy bits cut>

Louis, you can deliberately sidestep my arguments by
lumping them together with what is a different set of
politics, if you want.

Perhaps it was my mistake to point to organisational 
consequences of an assessment of working class 
consciousness - until then, the discussion was genuinely
interesting. In a related way, I was genuinely shocked
by Jon Flanders' ability to cite Fundamentalist 
Christian home educators in his experience. It is
something which is outside my experience, although
I stand by my assertion that there is no fundamental
difference between the US and Britain.

I shall repost my original post without the little dig
at Louis at the end, and see if I get a more reasoned
reply.

Please note, for instance, the comparison between the
US and Germany, the distinction I made between the rise
and fall in the struggle and underlying class consciousness,
and the "Comradely" at the end.

Adam.


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>From adam Fri Mar 15 09:32:53 1996
To: marxism-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
Subject: Re: fascism, class consciousness
Content-Length: 3310


> Louis: It is not a narrower definition. It is a Marxist definition. 
> The nationalism of the oppressed is not class consciousness. Feminist 
> consciousness is not class consciousness.

I agree with the basic point Louis makes, that understanding
oppression and the need to fight back against it does not in
itself constitute class consciousness.

Many people on the left turned away from class towards oppressed
groups as the motor for change in society towards the end of the
70's. As seems to be the case in the SWP ( US ) , they were
stuffed as a result.

Many organisations on the left couldn't come to terms with the
downturn in the struggle which happened sometime in the mid
70's, depending on the country. They latched on to the
"autonomous movements" as a substitute, and pretended to
themselves that the trend in the movement was upwards, whereas
in fact it was downwards. When reality hit, it tended to hit
with a bang.




However, these trends affected socialists in every country,
not just the US. You should not slide from an argument about
the rise and fall in the struggle to another argument about
the underlying class consciousness.

I think it is reasonable to argue that the crisis which hit
in 1968, only lead to working class upsurges in some
countries, and not others - France, Italy, Greece, Britain,
etc but not Japan, Germany and the US ( although Turkish
workers in Germany and Black workers in the US were
involved in strike waves ). What is interesting about the current
situation is that the economic crisis is hitting those countries
which were relatively immune last time. In Germany, it has already
led to serious class antagonism.

> All of this is changing, needless to say. The US working class is facing 
> the same types of assaults that workers in other countries have been 
> facing. Furthermore, the attacks are deeper here than they are elsewhere 
> in developed capitalist countries. However, consciousness lags behind 
> altered objective conditions. This reflects the dead weight of historical 
> traditions. People are slow to react to painful circumstances. There is 
> an element of denial.

I can believe this.

But to make the point again, on the surface, the French events
"came out of the blue" , both in 1968 and this year. Before 68,
involvement in the French CP had been falling ( it had 1,000,000
members ! ) and the sales of its papers slumped. The normal 
indicators of class consciousness indicated a fall - but below,
the opposite was happenning. This year, workers had the choice
of voting for workers parties - but declined ! Is this more
or less class conscious than the US, where workers don't
have the option, and therefore can't exercise it ?

Of course, by overestimating, no one does themselves any favours,
because this generates exagerated expectations which lead to
demoralisation when they are not fulfilled. But underestimating
also has its dangers - it also leads away from the working class
as the motor of change.

<dig at Louis cut here>

Comradely,
Adam.

Adam Rose
SWP
Manchester
UK

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