From: "Karl Carlile" <joseph-AT-indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 19:05:30 +0000
Subject: EPULSION FROM FOUCAULT LIST


To Jon:

That is entirely wrong and undemocratic in the extreme. The situation now is that certain 
individuals on this List can say and do as they please because they in 
effect control the List. These people can exercise a dictatorship on 
the Foucalt List.The very people who can decide who 
is not to stay on the List can mailbomb, sneer and use obscene 
language and because another person puts forward points that they do 
not like and cannot respond to they are kicked off the List.

What is this entire enterprise about if its entire purpose is to 
stifle any messages that challenge the views of certain people on the 
Foucault 
by kicking their authors off the List. It is acceptable for these people 
to insult, be offensive and put forward empty over-inflated 
arguments. But it is not acceptable for a member of the List to 
successfully challenge these views. Is this what the Spoon 
Collective calls freedom of speech. Is this policy to be extended to 
all the Spoon Lists.

The essential reason for kicking me off the List is because I 
represented a real challenge to the empty rhetoric of some of the 
individuals on the List. They were afraid of this because it would both 
expose their views for what they are.

To kick someone off the List without even explaining why or offering 
them the opportunity to respond is most undemocratic. Clearly it is 
fine for these people to engage in the disgusitng practice of 
mailbombing a member of the List but not fine for me to challenge 
the messages of other people.

When I first made my presence felt on that List by sending a message 
to it silence fell over the List even though there had been an 
ongoing dialogue on it. There was no reply to my message. Clearly the 
silence was connected with the hostility of these people to my active 
presence on the List because I pose a challenge to what they 
represent.Do I have no rights as a member of this List. Obviously they were exchanging views 
concerning thsi through other means.

Your concluding remarks concerning my the mailbombing 
of mailbox are snide and cheap Jon. You also took your time in 
responding to my message. Obviously because I am the victim 
of mailbombing I am a going to be punished with your support. Because I report a 
probem to you I get punished and the perpetrators remain on the 
List to continue their reactionary practice.

I DEMAND MY IMMEDIATE REINSTATEMENT ON THE FOUCAULT LIST.

I also want to know what the Foucault List's argument is for this 
expulsion and the names of the indivuals behind it.
                                                   
                                      Karl Carlile




> Karl:
> 
> Thank you for your message.
> 
> As I said in a recent message, you have been unsubscribed from foucault by
> the moderator and other members of the spoon collective.
> 
> I understand this decision was a firm one, and you should know that such
> decisions are not taken lightly.
> 
> However, as a result you should not now be experiencing the technical
> dificulties you experienced earlier.  However, if you previous problems
> should return, feel free to get back in touch.
> 
> Take care
> 
> Jon
> for the spoon collective
> 
> On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Karl Carlile wrote:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 10:28:13 +0000
> > From: Karl Carlile <joseph-AT-indigo.ie>
> > To: Spoon Collective <spoons-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: (no subject)
> > 
> > Dear Jon:
> > 
> > Thank you for replying. The reason I have a fair idea is because 
> > certain inidividuals on the List were not able to deal with my 
> > challenge to their interpretation of Foucault's thought. The List had 
> > been quite active when I first joined it which is why I decided to 
> > participate. Then as soon as my first message was posted addressed to a 
> > particular individual silence fell over the List and there was hardly 
> > a message for days. Then when I sent another message to enquire as to 
> > why the List had gone virtually silent and to enquire as to why my message 
> > had not been replied to I received a reply from the person to whom I 
> > addressed the message. For all its worth, it was a smug kind of 
> > message. I responded promptly exposing the emptiness of the received post 
> > giving that person a taste of their medicine by using a little of 
> > their own smug language. Instead of replying to me seriously I got 
> > more of this "old boys club" attitude. Then several members of the 
> > List came to that personaid, in my view, in a very partisan and 
> > dishonest way. I suspected there was some kind of connection with 
> > these people. Eventually after an exchange of messages which, in my 
> > view, had little to do with developing debate and more to do with 
> > trying to bully me into silence I was assailed with well over a 
> > hundred and seventy copies of my own four or so messages as well as 
> > some replies to them.
> > 
> > These nessages bounced back to me continuously as if I had sent them. 
> > Clearly these small number of people want to keep the list as small 
> > private club for themselves. I never had this problem on the Internet 
> > before Jon.
> > 
> > I just woke up to one this morning in which the indivual told me to 
> > get of the List or shut up. The entire experience has, I believe, an 
> > intimidatory characer to it.
> > 
> > As I see it this is a blatant attempt by people who claim to adhere 
> > to Foucault's thought engaging in a pracitce that I am sure FOucalut 
> > would abhor. Their aim is to prevent me from expressing myself on the 
> > List. To foce me to unsubscribe. Clearly if they do not like the cut 
> > of new members on the lIst their policy is to force them off it by 
> > mailbombing, I think that is the expression for it. To my mind this 
> > is undemocratic and flies in the face that the spirit of the Spoon 
> > project.
> > 
> > I have copied one of the messages bounced back into this post:
> > 
> >  
> > Date forwarded:   Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:48:57 -0400
> > Forwarded by:     Spoon Collective
> > <spoons-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU> Forwarded to:    
> > joseph-AT-indigo.ie From:             "Karl Carlile" <joseph-AT-indigo.ie>
> > To:               foucault-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Date sent:  
> >      Tue, 23 Jul 1996 18:28:56 +0000 Subject:          Re: X-files
> > makes Diane wonder Send reply to:   
> > foucault-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
> > 
> > Karl: It is interesting to observe all these apparent lurkers
> > coming out of the woodwork to make their glib snipe.
> > 
> > It is all quite amusing but not very productive. 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Mon, 22 Jul 1996 09:09:53 -0500, Thomas E. Bedwell wrote:
> > > 
> > > >>When people were tortured and killed in the German death
> > > >>camps by the Nazis during the second worl war we only think
> > > >>that this is what happened. It is merely our subjective way
> > > >>of experiencing "reality". It is not objective. Indeed there
> > > >>are reactionary historians  who claim that there never were
> > > >>concentration camps: "an ideological construct" developed by
> > > >>certain interests.Ya know!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > There's an old net proverb that says that the merit of a
> > > thread is inversly proportional to the number of times the
> > > Nazi regime is mentionned in it.
> > > 
> > > To be more specific, when someone is attacking a
> > > *philosophical* argument by mentioning the Nazis the
> > > implication, whether she meant it or not, is that doubting
> > > whatever has been put to doubt is illegitimate, that it
> > > condones a crime. Should I consult a lawyer before making my
> > > philosophy?
> > > 
> > > more specifically, what Nazis get to do with the nature of
> > > reality? I first learned about the holocaust from my Grandma;
> > > can I built a metaphysical system on her back? Let me try:
> > > '*She* was there, therefore, *I* am right, and you'd better
> > > keep silent, otherwise, I will call upon her memory to silence
> > > your voice. ' Isn't that undisputable? 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -------------
> > > Gabriel Ash
> > > Notre-Dame
> > > -------------
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -------------
> > > Gabriel Ash
> > > Notre-Dame
> > > -------------
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> >                               Yours etc.,
> >                                          Karl 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, joseph wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 96 19:35:28 -0700
> > > > From: joseph <joseph-AT-indigo.ie>
> > > > To: spoons-AT-jefferson.village.virginia.edu
> > > > Subject: (no subject)
> > > > 
> > > > Dear Collective:
> > > > 
> > > > I very recently subscribed to the Foucault List.I have been on the  
> > > > marxism list for about six months or more.
> > > > 
> > > > My complaint is that some people on the Foucault List are bouncing back 
> > > > messages to me that have been sent by me or others to whom I have 
> > > > corresponded with. I have recieved in the region, I would think, of i50 of 
> > > > these messages over the last few hours. They are still coming in. I have 
> > > > never had this problem with the marxism list and dont know of anyone 
> > > > having this problem on it.
> > > > 
> > > > Would please do something about it. I have a fair idea who is behind it.
> > > 
> > > Karl, again we'll look into this.  How, by the way, do you get this "fair
> > > idea"?  Maybe that will help us.
> > >  
> > > >                                                          Karl
> > > 
> > > Take care
> > > 
> > > Jon
> > > for the spoon collective
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> >                               Yours etc.,
> >                                          Karl 
> > 
> 
> 
> 


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