Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:22:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: malecki-AT-algonet.se (Robert Malecki)
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: Restructuring of Spoon marxism space


Hans writes;.
>
>I see the same danger of fragmentation of the marxism space as Malecki
>does.  There are so many centrifugal forces that it is easily
>imaginable that Marxists of different persuasions will split up into
>different lists and never see each other again.  But one cannot fight
>against this by obstructing the work of hundreds of comrades, as is
>Malecki's intention.

Hans is subbing to the list and following the new rules "obstruction". Or is 
it having style and political opinions that forces you to support blocking 
malecki from the lists.
It appears to me that that the real obstruction to discussion is those who 
are trying to "reform" the lists into seperate little houses that moderate 
away anybody who does not particularily agree with the politics or the style..

By the way if you read what i wrote closely you would understand the above. 
So below i repost the letter.

i should add that the debate shows that it is only certain people on this 
list who are doing exactly what the M2 people did earlier in order to stop 
certain people from being a part of the discussions. However this is a 
fairly concentrated attempt in a political sense by certain people to gag 
and stop people who they don,t agree with.

The hit list appears to be coming from the list Mensheviks with backhanded 
support from certain Stalinist elements directed at other Stalinist elements 
and some of the Trotskyists like myself. So in fact it is more political in 
the sense of openly trying to destroy any forum where these people might 
want to participate. At least the ivory tower left M1 untouched. However the 
new attack on M1 is and attack to destroy a open discussion by all. This all 
under the guise of trying to save the lists from the horrible and philthy 
elements which they are prepared to do anything to stop.

It appears that the right and center will do anything in order to silence 
certain people on this list. So once again the specter of politics in *real* 
life are effecting the actions of the Menshevik and Stalinists who will stop 
at nothing in order to silence their  critics. Today it is Malecki, Hugh, 
Quispe, Gina, Rolf, who appear to be the main enemy for this attack. 
Tomorrow it will be somebody else. Maybe you! Hans..
   
 I note that Zeynep has added her name to the list of Malecki haters and the 
underlying motive is that their are no bougeois intellectuals on this list 
(only marxists). Ha what a joke. It appears that anybody on the list is 
marxist to her as long as they are polite and of course their backgrounds 
are never an excuse for their political deviations. Only malecki in exile 
appears to be affected by his working class background. But if i clean up my 
act she will start reading my posts again. Fuck off Zeynep. And if you do 
get around to saying anything that i think worth commenting i will despite 
your distaste for at least one working class kid. It was very touching by 
the way about the "workers university". However the real school for workers 
is on the picket lines and a *real* vanguard party. And not some 
Turkish "marxist" who still today is very unclear about where she stands on 
some of the burning issues of the workers movement.

"Marxism" at Jefferson Village "reorganises!"

Well now it is official. The spoon at Jefferson village has decided to 
reorganise the list and discussion. Naturally, like class struggle, all 
things change. The actors move in different directions and the battles 
draw lines even here in cyberspace.

Despite the rosy picture presented by spoon as "reorganisation" one must 
say that the reorganisation is something that is connected to the history 
of M1 and M2 lists.

The people involved, at least those who have been here for a while, is the 
dynamic force in this new reorientation. These people including myself is 
the human material with all of its various ideological and living experience 
in interaction which has brought about the present state of things.

The remarkable think about this process is how the cyberspace is being used 
to enforce all of these political and personal *real* life experiences. 
Thus trying to turn this media into deviding up this human material into 
various files where they can survive in peaceful bliss without being 
contaminated by a virus from the other rich political and personal 
backgrounds of those who claim to be "marxist" orientated. A family of 
revolutionaries that can exist, at least in cyberspace, in seperate 
little rooms where they feel comfortable.

Sort of like packing lollipops in individual or group plastic bags to keep 
them sterile for the uninformed consumer...Even better would be the history 
of the "new" leftwhich has led a gruopie existence especially amongst 
intellectual circles for a rather long time. 

It appears that the spoon is looking for organisational and moderation 
forms to strenghen this process of groupie existence of the left on 
Internet. In other words a little fack or room for each member or family 
to move into and be happy with their convictions.

How quaint! I think that it is a very logical outcome of the last months 
of struggle. Especially amongst the intellectuals on this list whos politics 
is connected to presenting their views to small groups of polite people who 
don,t have to worry about where the next meal is coming from or have been 
unemployed for months or years.

However i defend free speech and even the right to live in isolation and 
groupie existence even for those that prefer this alternative. However i 
do intend to subscribe to all of the new groups and try to follow the rules 
in order to make life uncomfortable for my political opponents. Or will i 
be prevented from doing this by my political opponents? Thus proving;

That  the present "reorganisation" is not more then a physical expression 
of the present groupie and individualist life that our "marxists" on this 
list appear to prefer in private little rooms rather then and open forum 
where ideas can clash.

Because it is quite clear there are certain individuals that are trying to 
use this reorganisation as a tool to gag people from participating in the 
debate. Naturally i defend the right of people to discuss in anyway they 
want to the questions facing those who claim to be "marxist"..

However to organise the discussion along the sectarian and groupie 
principals that the left has so long been doing in real life and raising 
it to a principle under the guise of "reorganisation" would be criminal. 
In fact, only a broad and open discussion with all political tendencies 
with people from all walks of life can show the way forward.

We have nothing to lose but our chains and the chains that those who will 
gag a free and open discussion will put on us under the guise of moderation 
and reorganisation. The best thing that can happen to people is to be 
confronted with living ideas and politics is through and open clash on 
and open forum where moderation is directed only against facist 
provacateurs and *real* cops!

Those who need to hide behind closed and moderated doors have something 
to hide or are afraid that there politics can not stand up to open and 
real confrontation are the only ones who gain by building walls around 
themselves with this new orientation by the spoon. This i,m afraid, despite 
all the rhetoric, is the underlying reason for the new reorganisation of the 
lists.

Warm Regards
malecki

I am posting this to the newsgroups and it will go in a future number of 
cockroach..







     --- from list marxism-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---