Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 13:50:00 PDT
From: Yossi <global-AT-uk.pi.net>
Subject: Re: On Iraq



It seems to me that you were looking for a reason not to support the
document which stands in opposition to American imperialism attacks on a
"thirld country" and you found one.
were you an Iraqi  left winger with history of opposition to imperialism,  I
would  have respect it, being from an imperialist country I would have a 
different criteria.
it is abc of materialism that being determine consciouness.
even if you were right on the question of zionism which you are not, this is
a secondary point in the document. were you serious about your opposition to
imperialism you could support the document while expressing criticism on the
point of zionism.
As an israeli revolutionery who believe that the Israeli working class can
be won away from zionism i reject your argument that attacking the
zionist ideology and practice is to write off the working class. This is a
left wing version of the common zionist argument that those who oppose
zionism from the left are anti-semites.
similar point must be made about the US. to oppose american imperialism and
to refuse to equate American nationalism with the nationalism of people  who
live in countries like  vietnam, philippens, indonesia, the arabs is not
third worldism but the duty of every socialist.
Please do not speak in the name of lenin as Lenin for example in 1908
defended Maroco under the local  reactionery king against europen
imperialism against the right wing in the second international that came
with your argument.
These are still days of reaction and the pressure not to oppose the new
world order is great, yet it is important to stand with the opressed against
the opressor, and it is a pleasure  to realize that clinton can not get the
support he wants even from the rulers of Kuwait.
yossi
 

>From a scratch to Gangrene?
>
>>From just being a formuler or editing problem in the declaration on Iraq 
it 
>
>appears that we now have a major difference!
>
>Actually the following two lines written by PO (yossi) say to me that PO 
has 
>
>been touched by a dos of third worldism in the first degree.
>
>PO (yossi) writes; 
>>
>>The nationalism of the arbs express the nationalism of the opressed, while
>>the nationalism of the zionists express the nationalism of the opressor.
>
>This has been the problem with the document from the very beginning and why 

>i raised the question of continuing to give this document my support. This 
>formulation can be taken as nothing else other then you have written off 
the 
>
>entire Israeli Proletariat and poor people to Zionism! I disagree whole 
>heartedly.
>

>This would be like saying the same thing as the other thread that is going 
>on about the "American people" supporting Clinton's imperialist attacks 
>against Iraq, which certainly and overwhelming majority do---and writting 
>them off as hopeless!
>
>This approach is the approach of people who are soft on third world 
>nationalism! In fact in this case Iraq under the leadership of Saddam 
>recently had the third or fourth most powerful army in the world. Enormous 
>oil resources and was the darling of both American,German,Swedish 
>imperialism where he spent a lot of the oil money over the years building 
up 
>just that army.
>
>But then we are discussing here the Kurds and the Palestineans as being the 

>oppressed nationalities. They are in fact that. And naturally 
>Bolshevik-Leninists support their "right" to self determination and land to 

>live and thrive on. 
>
>But Zionism is the oppressor nation? Or the nationalism of the oppressed. I 

>doubt that they are alone in the middle east. Zionism is a reactionary 
>bougeois ideology that is imposed on Israeli,s from the top.There are 
>millions of Jewish Workers and poor people who both through their position 
>in society, but also other reasons do not accept this ideology more then in 

>the way that Americans appear to accept the present policies of the Clinton 

>administration.
>
>Although the special history and creation of Israel by the victors of the 
>second world war must also be taken into consideration. In fact back then 
>they had to fight a war against the British colonialists. Unfortunately the 

>leadership to a large part were Zionists. But who,s side were we on then?
>
>>Arab nationalism has progressive and reactionary elements. It is 
progressive
>>in relationship to opposition to imperialism, and national opression. It 
is
>>reactionary when it comes to aspects like explotation of workers and
>>opression of minorities. Zionism is reactionary through and through.
>>The argument of class against class  while ignoring the reality of
>>particular opression was the method of Debs not of lenin.
>
>Now we come to the very heart of the arguement. Since when is Arab 
>nationalism progressive against imperialism? In which Arab land? Which Arab 

>land has not oppressed the Palestineans? Being that you claim that Israel 
is 
>the oppressor nation. And which Arab nationalist land is prepared to give 
>the Palestineans and the Kurds the right to self determination and land. In 

>fact it was and is none of them. The closest thing to a state that the 
>Palestinians have come is the present situation. Naturally it is hardly a 
>state, but some sort of self steer option under Israeli rule with military 
>force. In fact this is far more then any of the so called "progressive" 
arab 
>nationalists have ever been willing to go! Thus all the talk about Arab 
>nationalism being progressive is just ridiculous. Arab Nationalism, just as 

>Israeli Nationalism is reactionary and blocks the way to any independent 
>class struggle by the Proletariat in the middle east..
>
>>Of course we have to struggle to free the israeli working class from 
zionist
>>ideology and practice, but this can be done only when the israeli workers
>>support their palestinians brothers and sisters against the zionist state,
>>not in abstact as a class against class.
>
>And then you throw in the above to cover your softness to Arab Nationalism. 

>Down on your knees PO begging the Jewish Proletariat to support their 
>Palestinean brothers and sisters will not due. Trying to tell this to and 
>Israeli worker in the context of the above is like saying to them go out 
and 
>commit suicide! The Israeli proletariat will fight only if it is in their 
>interests with the Palestineans. It is the duty of a Bolshevik party to 
>point out why it is in the Interests of both Israeli and Arab proletariat 
>just why it is in their interests to fight together as an independent class 

>against all of their oppressors be they Arab, Jew or outside intervention. 
>That is why the question "Not Arab against Jew, but Class against class" is 

>raised.
>>
>>No question that kuwait rurles are reactionaries yet israel is the 
stronger 
>>army
>>in service of imperialism in the middle east. To compare Kuwait and Israel
>>is to equte the elephant with the fly.
>>yossi
>
>Finally it now comes down to just a question of who has the biggest army in 

>the service of imperialism. As if the israeli army does not have its own 
>interests to defend. Are you saying that in a war with say Iraq, Syria, 
>Jordanien, Egypt, that Bolshevik Leninists would support the progressive 
>Arab side? And the last little bit
>about Kwait vs Israel is even more proof that PO and there tendency have 
>turned this issue from a scratch to Gangrene.
>
>It appears that PO and friends are turning away from a correct line and are 

>trying to find support with the state capitalists and organisation that 
Jörn 
>represents. Good luck my friends. But the road you are taking, I certainly 
>do not choose to follow. I withdraw all support to the document from this 
>point on. What at the beginning appear to be a editorial difference has 
>turned into and open sore and is stinking of Gangrene.
>
>Warm Regards
>Bob Malecki
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>--------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
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