Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:47:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Justin Schwartz <jschwart-AT-freenet.columbus.oh.us>
Subject: Re: The state (authoritarianism)



Nothing rests on the particular examples of conflicting ends I mention;
the important thing is that whatever those ends will be, there will be
conflicting ones. Obviously we cannot talk concretely about the details of
value structures we cannot imagine, because we cannot imagine them. But
the structural problems will remain. It's no response at all to say that
in some situation we cannot conceive, things will be different in ways we
cannot specify, so for all we know things will be hunky-dory, and
therefore we can be confident that there will be no conflicts serious
enough to require collective decisionmaking that leads to enforceable
decisions or to require enforceable dispute resolution. Try that one on
the next worker you wantto persuade of socialism. If he believes you,
don't recruit him. He's fool. --Justin

On 20 Sep 1996, jc mullen wrote:

> I really do think that Justin is underestimatin how much  the psychology of
> people today is produced and formed by capitalist society and its institutions
> (family, school, ideology, media, and simply everyday experience of needing to
> compete). In my opinion, such concepts as "sel-interest", "boring" "authority"
> "free time" "enlightened self-interest" "material wealth", all of which concepts
> form the basis of Justin's argument willbe unrecognizable in a society where
> nobody knows what it's like to be systematically oppressed in order to make
> profit for capital or to smooth the operation of capitalism. 
> 	I don't think we can predict in any detail, but if we look at history we
> get some idea. The ideas, which were obvious axioms in some societies in the
> past ("magic", the medieval concepts of "honour", the feudal concept of "noble
> blood" "divine right" "slavery" "dowry") are today for us on the whole strange
> concepts which we have to study in order to understand. In a communist society,
> I would expect that most of the concepts I quoted from Justin would have totally
> changed meanings for people. Because all of these concepts are based in
> capitalist social relations. Let's take "free time" for example, one of my
> favourite things.  The basis of this idea is the fact that almost all the work
> we have to do in this society is taken away from us : we don't choose, we don't
> participate in the end result of the production, or, very often, the work itself
> is fundamentally meaningless. Of course we adore free time.
> 	But let's not underestimate what comes from capitalism. Capitalism is not
> just a way of organizing society and the production of commodities : it is also
> a way of producing human beings, human personalities, and their wishes desires
> and dreams. After it's all gone away, what will people's dreams and desires
> be... hard to say, but it will be fun finding out.
> 	JOhn Mullen
> 	Socialisme International
> 	France 
> 	
> 
> 
> 
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