Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:04:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: the state


On 11 Sep 1996, jc mullen wrote:

> That societies need organization, debate and factionalism is beyond dispute. The
> mistake Justin makes is assuming that this is the basis of the oppresive,
> repressive, and/or exploitative state. Complexity gives organization gives
> factionalism gives oppression. This is a perfectly respectable, Conservative,
> opinion. But that is what it is.

	I don't understand what you're saying, maybe its a problem with
your particular type of English? 

	I understand that: 

1) You agree that all societies, whether communist or capitalist, need
some sort of organization, debate, and thus factionalism. 

	But I don't understand what you mean by this sentence: 

"The mistake (that) Justin makes is assuming that *this* is the basis of the
oppressive, repressive, and/or exploitative state." 

	What is the variable "this" that you are referring too? Are you
saying that Justin thinks that factionalism is the basis of "the
oppressive state." Does the "oppressive state" equal capitalism? 

	I also don't understand the meaning of the next sentence: 

"Complexity gives organization gives factionalism gives oppression." 

	By the use of "gives" do you mean "is the cause of." I'm not
familiar with any English usage of the word "gives" to mean, "the cause
of," but is that what you are aiming at? 

	Are you attributing to Justin the opinion that complexity is the
cause of organization, and factionalism is the necessary outgrowth in the
conflict over different types of organization which then causes
oppression. So that: 

- complexity causes organization
	- but conflicts over methods of organization and administration
	  lead to factionalism. 
		-and factionalism is the cause of oppression

	If so, that is not Justin's opinion. As he is NOT against
factionalism, and feels that factionalism can exist in a socialist society
whether of the planned variety that you favor, or the market socialist
variety that he favors. Political factionalism, according to Justin and
myself, must exist in all societies because it is the effect of
differences in opinion about the role and responsibilities of government.
One individual may favor the allocation of one resource over another in
the planning schemes of either a market socialist or centrally planned
economy, while another may differ in opinion. The outgrowth of this is
that the individuals will organize, if they deem the issue signifigant, to
influence the issue democratically. 

	Thus Justin and I may agree on the first two points, but will
disagree that factionalism is the cause of oppression, or even that
factionalism is the effect of oppression. 

Kevin
Cols, Oh

PS: Justin, am I representing your opinion correctly in your absence? 
	
			
						




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