Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 23:22:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: the state



You got me just right. --jks

On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Kevin Cabral wrote:

> On 11 Sep 1996, jc mullen wrote:
> 
> > That societies need organization, debate and factionalism is beyond dispute. The
> > mistake Justin makes is assuming that this is the basis of the oppresive,
> > repressive, and/or exploitative state. Complexity gives organization gives
> > factionalism gives oppression. This is a perfectly respectable, Conservative,
> > opinion. But that is what it is.
> 
> 	I don't understand what you're saying, maybe its a problem with
> your particular type of English? 
> 
> 	I understand that: 
> 
> 1) You agree that all societies, whether communist or capitalist, need
> some sort of organization, debate, and thus factionalism. 
> 
> 	But I don't understand what you mean by this sentence: 
> 
> "The mistake (that) Justin makes is assuming that *this* is the basis of the
> oppressive, repressive, and/or exploitative state." 
> 
> 	What is the variable "this" that you are referring too? Are you
> saying that Justin thinks that factionalism is the basis of "the
> oppressive state." Does the "oppressive state" equal capitalism? 
> 
> 	I also don't understand the meaning of the next sentence: 
> 
> "Complexity gives organization gives factionalism gives oppression." 
> 
> 	By the use of "gives" do you mean "is the cause of." I'm not
> familiar with any English usage of the word "gives" to mean, "the cause
> of," but is that what you are aiming at? 
> 
> 	Are you attributing to Justin the opinion that complexity is the
> cause of organization, and factionalism is the necessary outgrowth in the
> conflict over different types of organization which then causes
> oppression. So that: 
> 
> - complexity causes organization
> 	- but conflicts over methods of organization and administration
> 	  lead to factionalism. 
> 		-and factionalism is the cause of oppression
> 
> 	If so, that is not Justin's opinion. As he is NOT against
> factionalism, and feels that factionalism can exist in a socialist society
> whether of the planned variety that you favor, or the market socialist
> variety that he favors. Political factionalism, according to Justin and
> myself, must exist in all societies because it is the effect of
> differences in opinion about the role and responsibilities of government.
> One individual may favor the allocation of one resource over another in
> the planning schemes of either a market socialist or centrally planned
> economy, while another may differ in opinion. The outgrowth of this is
> that the individuals will organize, if they deem the issue signifigant, to
> influence the issue democratically. 
> 
> 	Thus Justin and I may agree on the first two points, but will
> disagree that factionalism is the cause of oppression, or even that
> factionalism is the effect of oppression. 
> 
> Kevin
> Cols, Oh
> 
> PS: Justin, am I representing your opinion correctly in your absence? 
> 	
> 			
> 						
> 
> 
> 
> 
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