Subject: Re: the state redux & socialism
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 16:55:00 EST



 ----------
  >  From: Justin Schwartz
  >  To: marxism2-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
  >  Cc: INTERNET:marxism2-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
  >  Subject: Re: the state redux & socialism
  >  Date: Sunday, 29 September 1996 5:16AM
  >
  >
  >  OK, so your view is that we do not have liberal democracy. But when we 
get
  >  rid of the class that has the power to monopolize the political process
  >  and the media in virtue of its control of productive assets, what's the
  >  objection to having liberal democracy, with genuine universal suffrage,
  >  representative government, extensive civil and political liberties, and
  >  the ruke of law? Adam rejects these things beacuse he sees government 
as
  >  exclusively a machine of class repression. On taht view, liberal
  >  democracy would get in the way of the proletraian dictatorship as a
  >  dictatorship unlimited by law over groups of people who have no rights.
  >  (It would do that.) But if you do not share that conception, and see
  >  government instead as also a way of making policy decisions and 
resolving
  >  disputes, what better form for these functions than a liberal democracy
  >  undistorted by capitalist power?
  >
  >   --Justin

This discussion seems to be going around in circles. On one hand Justin says 
he just talking about the period of communism, i.e. after the transitional 
workers state period. On the other hand Justin seems to be saying that it is 
the worker's state itself that will make communism impossible because of the 
undemocratic measures (in terms of the dispossed bourgeoisie) that will be 
necessary.

I suspect the latter is Justin's position, so I suggest he stop pretending 
he is talking about Communism, or make himself clearer.

As Marx pointed out, a revolution is just about the most undemocratic event 
that can happen. And it won't be a matter of a 24 hour uprising and then 
back to liberal democracy, this time without capitalism. Justin, the workers 
state period will probably last at least a generation after workers have 
taken power internationally.

A nice liberal democracy is not possible until the bullies and monsters 
(read ruling class) are rendered powerless without the possibility of 
seizing back control. Not all ends are achieved with the same means. A harsh 
situation will require some harsh measures, like imprisonment, censorship or 
even executions.

Soon after the October revolution the bolsheviks decided to ignore the 
democratically elected constituent assembly (or whatever it was called) in 
favour of the Soviets, and they were right to do so. Liberal Democracy is 
not some IDEA that can be applied regardless of the reality of the 
situation.

Tony hartin 


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