Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:09:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: the state redux & socialism



Glad to be polluting the communist waters. I have pointed stayed away from
the market socialism debate. I have defended that positiojn at length on
this list at various times and will perhaps again, although I don't care
too just now. My points about the  the state and law have nothing to do
with markets, their desirability, possibility, necessity, compatibility
with socialism, or whatever. As to the liberal character of the ideas
abouit the state, I don't care what you label them. I am perfectly happy,
even proud, to defend liberal democracy against all comers. I think that
representtaive government, universal suffrage, extensive civil and
political liberties, and the rulke of law are great things and I wouild
not fightr for their abolition. I would fight against their abolition as
strenuously as I fight for the overthrow of capitalist power and worker's
self-rule. --Justin

On 21 Sep 1996, neil wrote:

> dear justin,
> 
> It seems your muddle on the nature of socialism & communism  continues.
> 
> You state in your  reply to Adam/UK on 9/20
> 
> ".......I carefully avoided any ones (non-class conflicts-NC) that turned on the
> sort of disputes that arise in a socialist or any other market
> economy."............
> 
> The above is an oxymoron at best .
> Bonifide  socialism is workers rule,  without exploitation of person by person
> and ALL capitalist market
> relations are superceded by socialist mode of worker  planned  production for
> Human need, not for sale and profit.
> There is NO  longer markets operative  under socialist/communist  relations of
> production. We don't even have money either, this too  is phased out in the
> transition period.
> 
> Markets imply buying and selling commodities, including the commodity human
> labor power, & capital accumulation with surplus value.
> This is capitalism still Justin so  your confusions on this issue inevitably
> affect your reasoning denying the possibility of totally doing away with the
> political state under communism.
> 
> I think you have some  erroneous social democratic, liberal , etc. concepts of
> the basic social relations and laws of motion of welfare state and
> state--capitalist societies and are confusing this with workers socialism and
> communism!  
> 
> Justin S.,You are mixing used liberal  Justin- oil and  polluting the Communist
> waters.
> 
> Neil
> 





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