Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:20:24 +0800
From: fractal-AT-wantree.com.au (Frac)
Subject: RE: ehh? (reply to Walter-LONG)


Walter and others,

I cut this down from the full reply sent to Walter and I wasn't going to
post any of it to the list had he not sent the last post to the
list...*sigh*..shit happens...

Frac

W. said:

>And what I am (clearly) suggesting is that the will has domain over the
>"illusory physical."  I won't recite a boorish catalog of documented
>examples of "mind over matter," but I will encourage you to consider the
>possibility that your health is not necessarily and immovably beholden
>to your physical self.

I can make arbitray choices that affect my overall health. I cannot select
my biochemical make-up.

>> Would you claim that epileptics aren't suffering from
>> an illness? 
>
>Eh.  Let me clarify my use of the term "illness."  I apologize for my
>less-than-obvious liberties with the word.  I'm trying to communicate my
>belief that the physical is ultimately subject to the will.  I even
>believe epilepsy can be overcome by will.  Are epileptics "suffering?"
>Most people would answer with a resounding, "Of course!"  But us
>perspectivists understand the nature of concepts like suffering.  Is it
>likely an epileptic will overcome his condition merely through the
>exercise of his will?  No.  Possible?  Absolutely.

Your beliefs are just that, beliefs. You've no evidence to back up your
claim, so your "belief", if you will, occupies the same epistemological
status as the statement, "I believe in unicorns, ghosts, and god." Because
something is humanly conceivable does not, in the least, make it therefore
*possible*. While it's "conceivable" I may sprout wings and fly tomorrow, it
is highly improbable...just as it is improbable that epileptics can exert
mind over siezure.


>We know that levels of different chemicals in your brain change when
>your emotional state changes.  We know that you can change your
>emotional reaction to any given stimulus by modifying your perspective.

I can change my perspective on debt Walter, but it doesn't make "debt"
itself go away, nor does it prevent me suffering the vicissitudes of
poverty, including mental anquish.

>I was terrified of heights 'til my late teens.  Looking off the Eiffel
>Tower elicited a decidedly physical response from my stomach, and I'm
>sure my brain would've lit up a PET scan with all kinds of interesting
>colors.  But today I could spend all day up there.  Because I've changed
>the way I think.

It is not so difficult to face an *identifiable* enemy and overcome it. You
confuse the issue entirely if you equate the identifiable physical with a
biochemical reaction with no known outside source. Please read some of the
literature on rapid-cyclers and tell me it in any way resembles your
example. It doesn't...not even remotely.


>Today (nearly 7 years later) I'm in a strong, exciting, FUN marriage.  I
>have a wonderful 15-month-old son.  I have an awesome career.  I am the
>most peaceful, happiest person in the world.  And this didn't just
>"happen."  The chemicals in my brain didn't just spontaneously re-align
>themselves. 

Of course they didn't; you quit taking recreational drugs and got over being
an angst-driven teen--sorry dear, I rather doubt you were or ever have been
bipolar. You cannot GROW out of bipolar disorder like you grow out of your
first teen crush--doesn't happen.

<huge snip here--ask me or Walter for it if curious>

>But they also encourage a victimization mentality.  They encourage
>people to relinquish responsibility for their spiritual health.  This
>trend to categorize any protracted malaise as some chemical imbalance is
>disappointing.  I'd like to see psychiatrists encourage their depressed
>and manic-depressive patients to take up some form of self-discovery
>(philosophy) instead of prescribing dependencies.  "Feeling a little
>down-in-the-mouth?  Here, take some uppers!  Feeling pissed-off at the
>world?  Probably don't have enough serotonin -- eat more bananas!"

See above and again, you'll know why I think you are way off base here. I
already took more pills that any doctor could prescribe--it's called
self-medication. I quit drinking for 9 years--nothing helped; nothing
worked. There may indeed be lots of cases in our fat, neurotic society where
your scenario is applicable; I don't deny that, but please refrain from
painting all mental health cases, and in particular, the biochemical ones,
with such a broad (and ignorant) brush.


>> And I would ask you
>> this: If severe depression, or the psychoses of a manic high aren't
>/also/
>> "spiritual" places then perhaps you have a much more limited view of
>certain
>> mental disorders of a /biochemical/ nature than even you realize. 

>I'm suggesting that spiritual growth can do far more for a
>manic-depressive than a chemical regimen.

Not if they TRULY are manic-depressive it won't. You have no spirit in the
throes of mania and psychoses.

>
>I try not to speculate about "could-haves," but sometimes it's useful
>for me to try to imagine how my life would have unfolded had I stopped
>asking the tough questions, had I simply been satisfied with the hazy
>pseudo-equilibrium imposed by big white pills and small green-and-yellow
>capsules.

You haven't seen the end of your currently happy life--true bipolar disorder
worsens with age--hold on sweetie, the best is yet to come, then again, I'll
take a bold step here and tell you that you *never* were bipolar in the
first place. Sounded more like a typical troubled teen syndrome to me, which
anyone can quite happily grow out of.


>Drugs can be effective tools.  I'm not some anti-medicine zealot.  And I
>don't think use of these drugs condemns sufferers.  We've come a long
>way, and these drugs can probably help make it easier to open certain
>doors for many people.  But manic-depressives should be constantly
>working to get _off_ these crutches.

Do you think you are "crutchless"? If meds be crutches to bipolar folks,
what then is the meaning of the word 'crutch'? Is it that which one cannot
walk without? If so..then I accept that positive connotation of the word.
But if you mean that as a sign or symbol of weakness in myself and others,
then you are sadly misguided. Do you even have a clue as to how much courage
it takes to take those little pills the first time? No? Then be quiet about
that which you do not know--a la Wittgenstein. There is no "working" to get
/off/ that which enables one to live--only a fool would work for such a
dubious end.


Entertain my position that there's more to life than your
>physical presence and arbitrary emotions, that your will can persevere.
>
>> My last 2 cents on this, but I cannot stand untruths...they harm.
>
>No they don't.  Nothing "harms."  Nothing worth giving two cents about
>can be threatened.

Love the 'lie' and watch your soul turn putrid and die.

Yours,

Virginia Woolf in mathematical garb

PS...

I'm known for being "intense," has served me well in philosophy.

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